Paragon2 PRR M1a/M1b

rrjim1 Jun 23, 2015

  1. rrjim1

    rrjim1 TrainBoard Member

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    I don't think so! This is nothing new, manufactures test the waters all the time and also decide not to go ahead with a product. It's not unethical, it's called smart business, you don't go ahead with a project that you can't produce or make money on. By not purchasing BLI products is only hurting yourself, not BLI.
     
  2. rrjim1

    rrjim1 TrainBoard Member

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    People losing money??? Right or wrong it was there decision if there was enough market, you opinion just doesn't matter. Manufacturing has advanced a ton in 10 years, BLI might not have been able to produce what they wanted to back then.
    They have given what I consider plenty of progress reports, I have seen several videos and reports of there pre-production models. Release dates get pushed back because BLI is not happy with the pre-production sample and want changes made to correct any problems. IMO being mad over not getting a toy is ridicules.
     
  3. Inkaneer

    Inkaneer TrainBoard Member

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    By 'progress reports' do you mean the endless list of dates as to when these would be available? Is that what you call progress???????? If as you say, "BLI might not have been able to produce what they wanted to back then" shouldn't they have known that before they shot their mouth off or at least before they took preorders and continued to do so for years? And this is not about "being mad over not getting a toy" BLI did N scale in general and PRR modelers in particular a tremendous disservice by their deceitful business practices. They contributed to the lie that Pennsy does not sell only to be proved wrong by Bachmann. You want to know why BLI is now trying to do the M1? It is not because thousands of orders suddenly materialized out of thin air. No, BLI got word through someone probably at the PRRTHS that Bachmann was doing research on Pennsy steam and so all of a sudden they got the orders they needed to do the M1. They just materialized out of thin air. They could not get them for ten years and now all of a sudden here they were. Yeah, right, I bet if BLI offered the Brooklyn Bridge or prime farmland in the Everglades you would believe them.
     
  4. Inkaneer

    Inkaneer TrainBoard Member

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    Testing the waters is one thing but poisoning the well is another. That is as much unethical as it is stupid. Aggravating your potential customers is not smart business. And where did you get the idea that BLI could not make money on the M1? If that was the case then what changed? BLI's position through this all does not make any sense. This has been an on again, off again project for ten years. Then in March 2014 BLI was going forward with it. WHY? Did they get the number of preorders they needed. One large East Coast E-tailer cancelled all their prior preorders when BLI's new announcement was made. These preorders were ten years old. Other shops did likewise. So where did BLI get these necessary orders for production to commence? It does make sense. But I will tell you what makes more sense. BLI gets word, probably from the PRRTHS, that some other manufacturer is researching Pennsy steam. Now someone else is in the hunt and may steal their thunder. The timing from early 2014 is right from what I have been able to gather. Bachmann comes out with a PRR K4 in Sept 2015 and they sell out. BLI dodges a bullet on the M1 but for how long? Bachmann releases new models in September. Will the next one be a M1? They already have a heavy mountain and the M1's shared a lot of stuff with the K4's (pony truck, trailing truck, appliances, etc.) . If they do and they beat BLI it would be justice served.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 29, 2016
  5. jwomble

    jwomble TrainBoard Member

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  6. jwomble

    jwomble TrainBoard Member

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    I thought the main reason this model was delayed for many years was because of the law suit that MTH brought against BLI claiming patent infringement but MTH lost. The M1a will be in the stores by April 20 according to BLI.
     
  7. Inkaneer

    Inkaneer TrainBoard Member

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    That is the first I heard of any lawsuit involving the M1. MTH was involved in lawsuits against UP, Lionel LLC and BLI. But the latter was for an alleged patent infringement on a smoke unit which I do not think was included in the M1 or any of their N scale models. That aside there appears to be some bad blood between Mike Wolf of MTH and Robert Grubba of BLI. Grubba was formerly with Lionel LLC which MTH sued for patent infringement and won. After leaving Lionel, Grubba started BLI and was in turn sued by Lionel. MTH was, in turn, sued by Woodland Scenics. Stay tuned. This has all the makings of a daytime TV soap opera. All that is needed is Victor.

    Google MTH BLI lawsuit for more information.
     
  8. jwomble

    jwomble TrainBoard Member

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  9. jwomble

    jwomble TrainBoard Member

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    The MTH/BLI lawsuit threatened the existence of BLI and if they had lost Wolf would had succeeded in driving Grubba out of business. Thinks BLI cut back on product development, especially the slow to return investment N gauge models.
     
  10. Inkaneer

    Inkaneer TrainBoard Member

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    Could be but does that justify BLI telling everyone that they didn't have enough pre orders and perpetuating the myth that Pennsy doesn't sell? To me that is not only deceitful but does a very big injustice to potential customers.
     
  11. Traindork

    Traindork TrainBoard Member

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    My goodness, the sky is falling!
     
  12. John Moore

    John Moore TrainBoard Supporter

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    Been following this discussion since it started, not because I am a Pennsy modeler, but because of the parallel to what I used to model. Note I said used to. Try modeling the GN and NP. Diesel models have been produced ad nauseum for both roads and for Pennsy. Cars, both freight and passenger, and cabooses have come and gone. But steamers have been few in numbers for all three roads. Unless one chose to invest in expensive brass models, and their sometimes questionable running. And it wasn't just an eastern bias because the GN and NP are western roads. MicroScale released a set of GN steam decals a few years back. Big problem that like the Pennsy there has been nothing to put them on.

    You have two big roads, both well known, the used the Belpaire firebox a lot and have both been written about and filmed. Two of the three roads have had restored steamers in operation and the NP has had several if you want to included the SP&S 700 which is a NP A3 version which has operated recently.

    So yes Pennsy modelers I feel your pain and frustration about not having suitable steam offerings. It is interesting to see all the models available in steam to the European modeler. And after 40 plus years of frustration in having to cobble together my steamers to get something even close to what I wanted I said the heck with it and became a freelancer.

    I think that Bachmann will end up being the one who will come up with more eastern steam and probably some more Pennsy. They have the logistics and the track record with the K4 and the J and even a early Wooten firebox 2-8-0.
     
  13. rrjim1

    rrjim1 TrainBoard Member

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    I'm not even going to reply because it's all ridicules and IMO belongs in the trash.
    You have no idea how many pre-orders BLI had, your just guessing!
    If your not purchasing any BLI products ever again, why waste you time on this post, seems kind of ridicules IMO.
     
  14. Carl Sowell

    Carl Sowell TrainBoard Supporter

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    Why are you wasting our time on this forum? As info, our language spells it RIDICULOUS.

    LOL,
    Carl
     
    Last edited: Apr 1, 2016
    gatrhumpy likes this.
  15. Inkaneer

    Inkaneer TrainBoard Member

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    Well I guess you didn't see my prior post. So here it is in a nutshell. January 2005 PCM/BLI initially announces the M1 with a delivery date of April 2005 (see Wig Wag website) and starts accepting preorders. From 2005 onward they claim they don't have the necessary amount of preorders. They even put a "preorder meter" on their webpage showing the gap. After the "pre-order meter" was panned by modelers it was taken down. In 2010 this appearredon the BLI website:

    "Our number one priority in N Scale in 2010 will be the PRR M1a. We got a lot of good feedback on our E7's and E8's with the Paragon2 sound system. We plan to proceed with E3's and E6's, and the M1a's. Any new announcements will be in the 2010 catalog - I don't know what date that will be ready at this time.
    Sincerely,
    Matt Williamson
    Broadway Limited Imports"

    The M1, the "number one priority in N Scale in 2010" then entered into the netherworld of vaporware and remained there until March 2014 when suddenly BLI announced they would do the M1 with a release date of January 2015. Here is the quote from the webpage of an East coast E-tailer from March 2014:

    "Previously announced as part of the Precision Craft Line, it has been re-scheduled as part of the Broadway Limited Line-up and is now promised for January '15 delivery. All previous reservations have been CANCELLED. Please re-order based on new specs/stock #'s.

    Notice it says that all "previous reservations" (preorders) were cancelled. So now the locomotive that allegedly was not made because there weren't enough pre-orders is now going to be made with no pre-orders. Also note that in 2014 these were promised for January 2015 (which has come and gone but that is another story). So what happened to turn everything around? How do we go from not enough pre-orders to no pre-orders to we are producing and they will be here in January 2015. Show me the logic behind all of that, that is, if you can. You think my position is ridicules (sic) but you accept BLI's B.S. that defies logic and you can't explain it. Sounds like sour grapes to me.

    So here is what I think happened. I think PCM/BLI had enough preorders and they knew it. However they could not make the investment at the time for some unknown reason. Maybe it was the MTH lawsuit (which was filed in October 2009), maybe not. But in late 2013 or early 2014 PCM got wind of another manufacturer researching Pennsy steam locomotives. I think that maybe this information came from the PRRT&HS which is the one stop shop for everything Pennsy. These guys will bend over backwards to assist manufacturers wanting to make PRR items. The manufacturer was, of course, Bachmann who in Sep 2015 came out with the K4 without asking for pre-orders. Maybe BLI didn't know Bachmann would do the K4. Maybe they did. But what BLI did do was put the M1 back on the front burner with a delivery date before Bachmann's and asked for pre-orders. Now I am not dogmatic on this and I freely admit that I can be wrong. BUT from a logic standpoint this scenario is far more reasonable and logical than what BLI has been giving us and which you are so naïve to accept hook, line and sinker.

    Back in 2005 I pre-ordered 2 of the M1's. That pre-order was cancelled in 2013 and never re-ordered. If Bachmann comes out with an M1 I will buy it. I'd rather they do an H10 but there is no way I am buying anything from BLI and I will not, in any way, be hurting myself for it.
     
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  16. bremner

    bremner Staff Member

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    I thought that the original announcement was made in 2003
     
  17. Carl Sowell

    Carl Sowell TrainBoard Supporter

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    The real problem is that they picked a PRR steamer, thus not enough interest. Now had they chosen an AT&SF 4-8-4, or an SP GS-1 or AC-9 they would have been okay.

    Don't throw too many stones, please.
    Carl
     
  18. RedRiverRR4433

    RedRiverRR4433 TrainBoard Member

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    I agree with you Carl.:)

    Stay cool and have fun with it.....:cool::cool:

    Shades
     
  19. RBrodzinsky

    RBrodzinsky Staff Member TrainBoard Supporter

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    Officially -- please, cool your jets. Do not want to take further actions on this thread.
     
  20. dualgauge

    dualgauge TrainBoard Member

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    I have seen some listed for action. Do not see how can be, has not been listed as shipped.
     

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