objective review of DCC 'combinations'

hiya all.... got introduced to this by colonel (Thanks Paul) and ahve read the posts associated with DCC and thought it was a pretty wide spectrum of users (ie, not a digitrax warehouse).

What are the pro's and con's of the various manufacturers stuff for N scale North American steam? I want a system that will be TOTALLY 'hands free' and run from the puter, but is very small (8'x4' or 2400x1200 metric).

It will be a 3 mainline setup (maybe weaving around a little, but still 3 mainlines), with a 4-6 track fiddle yard our back (mainline runs through it, of course), and 2 small branch lines.

I want to be able to id each train, and possibly each piece of rolling stock, plus control turnouts and signals. This will be, predominantly, a one person layout with an absolute max of 4 locos running at once (probably no MU's)...3 on the mainlines, and 1 in the yard, for example, or 2 on the mainline, 1 on the branchline, and 1 in the yard.

What has each manufacturer got to offer a setup like this, or should I just go with DC and blocks (yuck).

 

If you are interested in operating by a computer, I would start with the software. I looked at many of them before I decided on Railroad & Co. I had originally thought about using KAM but it was expensive and didn't directly support signaling. I had read a lot of complaints about problems with Winlock so I avoided that one. I would suggest you go to each of the websites for and download each of their demo software packages and see what you plan to use. You also might want to look at the LocoNet Hackers' group on Yahoo. They are developing hardware and software in a cooperative mode (ie Linux) that supports the Digitrax LocoNet. They currently have a LocoNet-Computer interface (LocoBuffer) and also an IO card that could be used to control signals/turnouts/pushbuttons/etc.

Now to DCC systems. They all work basically the same. Most of the software packages will work with any of the major DCC systems. I use Digitrax because of their LocoNet architecture and the large body of users.

You mention that you wanted to be able to ID trains. Digitrax supports this with their transponding. Transponding is incorporated in most (not all) of their decoders. I believe another company also has some type of ID system but the big problem here is there is no NMRA standard. Railroad & Co and Winlok both support the Digitrax transponding. Once a train is identified by Railroad & Co, either by transponding or by manually assigning an ID to it, the software can track the train. You can track all your cars too but only if you want to put a transponding decoder in every car. I think you will have to wait for someone to come out with a bar code reader or something to be able to economically track individual cars.

Controlling turnouts is no problem. Most if not all of the DCC manufactures have "stationary decoders." Some have feedback incorporated in them while others don't. For computer control you really want feedback. For Digitrax the DS54 will drive 4 turnout motors, support 4 panel buttons, and provide feedback via LocoNet. There is also the DAC10 offered by ??? in England that is an even better value for money stationary decoder. It support 10 turnouts, panel lights, and panel switches plus LocoNet messaging and feedback.

Digitrax offers an excellent detection system in their BDL16. It supports 16 blocks for around $100 USD. That is about as cheap as I could find. The other thing is it will directly drive panel LEDs (2ma max) plus it sends occupancy information via LocoNet messages.

Signals are a problem. Right now I am not aware of any DCC manufacture (maybe Zimo) supporting signals. Digitrax is supposed to be coming out with a system but when is anyone's guess. I have gone with CTI electronics to drive my signals although I haven't finished installing that system yet. If you go with Railroad & Co software it can drive most any manufacture's signaling system. Railroad & Co can operate multiple hardware systems at the same time. You will need a separate serial port for each system though.

As to your last comment, no don't go with blocks and DC. DCC is the way to go.

 

The more technical and sophisticated you want to run your layout, the more sophisticated a system you want. Pretend dc doesn't even exist.

 

Well, as I read more and more in this group, and around the web (courtesy of links from this board) my layout takes more shape by the hour, and even though its only going to be 8x4, it will have an 8x4 fiddle yard underneath with a through track just 'extend the mainline' if required. This makes, IMHO, DCC mandatory. Now I just want to know WHAT DCC system I should go with (which is the reason for this thread). I have had the Digitrax Empire Builder recommended by (obviously) an N scale specialist store, who are also a Digitrax agent. While I havent gone into large scale investigation of that particular setup yet, I', still thinking 'chief' because of the layout. My fiddle yard alone will have the capacity to store close to 100 4-5 car TRAINS, and the layout itself will be capable of running 5 trains without DCC, and when you consider the fact that I will have somewhere around 60 sets of switches in the fiddle yard alone, the empire builder is probably gonna be struggling. Hell, it'll probably take the rest of my life to get the 100 locos, but the empire will only control 21 of em, even if they ARENT running....they just have to be on the track or fiddle yard, and they are part of the 21 units.

What do other manufacturers have to offer along these lines, bearing in mind that transponding is essential due to the lower level being totally 'blind'?

 

First of all, you have a slight misunderstanding of the slots limitations. The 22 slots refer to active slots. You can only have 22 locomotives actually being controlled at one time. You can have all the locomotives on the layout that you want.

That said, I would personally recommend the Chief over the Empire Builder. Besides having up to 128 slots, it also supports routes and decoder programming readback. I am sure their are other differences too.

 

Back in March there was a poll on what people here use. If you didn't see it yet, have a look.

For 'full spec' systems the vote seems pretty even between the DT Chief (13) and the NCE system (11), so I'd say check them both out carefully. (I'm surprised the Lenz 01 didn't get a single vote).

 

Mike, I agree. I;ve been shopping around the web a bit, and the Lenz system seems to match the Chief2 Digitrax system (with the 8 amp power option) in every aspect, plus outmatches it in some key areas. Certainly a very impressive outfit. Not that I'm saying the Chief isnt a goodun, and the Digitrax stuff has one very big advantage....its generally available over here in Aus AND its sold at an N scale specialist store :>))) The NCS, while good, doesnt appear to match the better Digitrax or Lenz 01 system.

OK, now, lemme get this clear....it says you can run 21 ACTIVE locos, and they can all be on the track at once.... I guess the proviso is that they are all on different decoder numbers.... what if you ahve, say, 21 running, then decide to park one and bring out another (21 locos running in 8'x4'...ROFLMAO!). Do you have to do something special?

Oh yeah, I hand drew my initial layout plan today, so I'll scan it in over the next couple of days and get the Colonel to post it for me in the layouts forum.....comments would be GREATLY appreciated... I respect your opinions :>)

 

Some background. The command station has no idea what is on the layout. The decoders on the layout don't talk back to the command station. The command station sends out commands to the decoders that you the operator tell it to. When you select a locomotive on your controller you are telling the command station that you want to send commands to a specific decoder. When the command station sends out the command it has no idea if the decoder receives the command or even if the decoder exists on the layout. If you had locomotives numbered 1 through 10 and you selected number 11, the command station would still send commands out to number 11. Nothing would be out there to receive the command but the command station wouldn't care.

Next, slots in the command station. Each locomotive that you select on your controller takes up one slot in the memory of the command station. That slot remains tied up until one of two things happens in the case of Digitrax DCS-100 command stations, you dispatch the locomotive or there is no activity by the controller for 3 1/2 minutes. This time can be changed but 3 1/2 minutes is the default. For the DCS-100 you can have 22 or 120 slots.

Now to decoder numbering. You probably want all of your locomotives to have different numbers but they don't have to. Back to what I started with, the command station doesn't know what the actual decoder addresses are. You want to number all you decoders with different numbers so that you can can control them individually. You could have thousands of decoder equipped locomotives on your layout at once. The only restriction is how many slots are available. You can only CONTROL as many locomotives as the number of slots you have available. If two locomotives have decoders with the same number then any command issued will be acted upon by both at the same time.

If you have 22 locomotives active and you want to bring out another one, then you must dispatch one of the locomotives that currently occupies a slot. With the Digitrax controller you would just activate the throttle that has an active locomotive and select the dispatch key. You could then select another locomotive.

If you are interested in reading the complete Digitrax Chief manual you can download it at http://www.digitrax.com/ftp/Chief%20II%20Manual.pdf. For any other manuals just go to the main PDF page at http://www.digitrax.com/pdfdocs.htm.

If you have any other questions, please post them.

 

Check into Zimo if You are looking for a complete system that has almost no limitations.

It controls:

DCC loco addresses 1-10239
Motorola addresses 1-80
DCC accessory addresses 1-127
Motorola accessory addr. 1-80
up to 1024 accessories (switches, signals, decouplers etc.)
up to 800 blocks if needed, for automatic operation
up to 5 turn tables
Each cab holds up to 10 addresses in it's memory, but any address is accessible.
at least 30 cabs can be used!
Zimo has built-in back-EMF since 1980, "signal governed speed control" since 1981, integrated train number recognition and location since 1989 and high frequency control of decoders (up to 32 kHz) since 1990.
Bi-directional infrared and radio throttles.
True accessory feedback.
Smooth illumination and dimming of signal lights.
Automatic operation with or without computer. STP software is designed to interact with any Zimo hardware and is extremly flexible.

Have fun,
Art

 

Some would say it completely outclasses them , but I'm not going there.

It's more a case of having different advanced functions and the style of the HMI (Human Machine Interface). At the (price) level we're talking about, it is almost all about what suits YOU and also availability and service, both by manufacturer and dealership. I picked one of these systems, but I won't pretend it was entirely rational. I did all the research, but was hard put to find a clear 'best', or even 'better'. Part of my final choice was gut feeling - I just felt that one suited me more than the others .