Do you have any information which might be shared? Not certain I recall ever hearing about this possibility. Boxcab E50
Wow, first I ever heard of this one. I don't know if the Hill Lines would have ever let this one happen, as it would be in direct competition with the CB&Q, which was the main connection to Chicago for both the NP and the GN.
The ran the North Coast Ltd over CNW rails for a while into Chicago from Mpls. Also had a connection in SE North Dakota. Always wondered why they never headed for the Black Hills for gold, since they built into Pony, and half a dozen other little places. hence my model theme, across SE Montana, (where i live,) into the Alzada area then Belle Fourche then CNW. I read somewhere that CNW was interested in getting to the coast in the 1890-1910 era, so wondered about the first question.
The only merger talks I ever heard about with the C&NW was back in the 60s with the MILW. This was one of the MAIN reasons MILW mgmt deferred maintenace on the RR to make profits look better for the merger talks. Of course we all know what ultimately happened.
I started this with my brother (gcav17) back in July. I remember reading something, somewhere about CNW seeking routes west and a possible agreement with NP. But can't find that source anymore. Having the colony line up to Alzada, MT seems to make a plausible extension via SE MT and then the Yellowstone river with NP. I think it was before the Milw actually built into the area and was still in the surveying stage. They had had a good relationship with NP on the Mpls-Chicago run, so.....
Well I went back and looked at the GN/NP-CBQ deal. From what is listed in the "Burlington Northern And It's Heritage" book, stock was purchased in controlling interests of the CB&Q with 50 percent going to Northern Pacific and 50 percent going to Great Northern, thus extending the ability to take the North Coast Limited and Empire Builders in to that precious track line into Chicago (In fact the 1950 attempt to merge GN and NP failed because they were told the only way it would happen was to let go of the CB&Q). SO the way I look at it, If NP and CNW merged, I would imagine that it would be in a controlling interest so that even Great Northern would have had a hand in the merger and the GN/NP would have no competition against the Q. I honestly believe that CNW would have just fell to Northern Pacific Colors in the long run. It would have ceased to exist and Northern Pacific would have just had a bigger route. Again this is just speculation on my behalf, knowing how the Q was aquired is all.
Found some info in Grant's book 'the Northwestern' but it is only by implication. On a map showing possible extensions to the Pacific. One route proposed is from Mystic,SD to Billings,MT which implies some talks or such with the NP. No mention in the text that i have found yet. It would have been interesting since the NP chafed at Hills control at times, even tho his mgmnt of the business helped the NP stay solvent. Like any other what if, a fun exercise in imagineering!! Juct what logo would they have ended up with? A monad with a bar behind it?
badlandnp- Many railroads looked at potential added routes, never getting beyond that point. Some even made preliminary surveys of the possible route and it ended there. But the concept may have only been internal at that point and they did not necessarily ever get to a point of talks with another company. They might have found nothing truly valuable as a bargaining point, with which to to approach someone else. Or investors balked, one of many recessions came along, etc.
Still to me, it doesn't sound like a Hill Lines move. I can't imagine them merging with C&NW at any point to jeopardize the Q. If it was in fact lines into other regions, I would think they'd do the same stunt, GN/NP owning 50-50 of stock on CNW. I know this is a what if scenario these days, but I'm trying to wrap my brain around it. Also was this before or after UP Dropped CNW for City Of Service?
This would have been much earlier. When railroads were still building westward. Late 1800s to early 1900s. Even the Minneapolis & St. Louis had thoughts....
I recently moved and just finally found my copy of 'The Northwestern' by H.Roger Grant. There is a single blurb and map showing possible extensions west. One of these was into Billings, MT which would seem to require NP cooperation. The paragraph states that in 1907 Marvin Hughitt, CNW CEO, considered going west to the coast, either with the Milwaukee or otherwise in cooperation with another or on their own. Vanderbilt and Rockefeller discussed it and it just fell by the right of way, so to speak. UP's Harriman and GN/NP's Hill were fighting at the time, ok always, in the Columbia River valley so it didn't happen. Could have been an interesting bunch of business fighting in that mess! Anyway, it is intriguing and I just wondered if there was more info out there.......somewhere.
1907 was just before the MILW started their Pacific Extension work. Talks of cooperation with the MILW would have seemed possible. Rockefeller was involved with the MILW somewhere in there. I believe on their Board of Directors. Conflicting interests? I really wonder how serious anyone, such as the NP, would have been about giving away usually very profitable long haul traffic movements? C&NW would have needed to have a really good something to offer.
Easier access to Chicago would be about the only plum CNW could offer. gcav17 texted me about Hill and Harriman bought up property in front of the Milw. extension to speculate prices up. And that the NP held the note on the Jawbone here in MT.
Yes. MILW bought the Montana RR from NP. There are 2-3 publications out there on the Jawbone. Yes, the Hill interests interfered with the MILW building westward. NP made money from hauling in materials and also instigated some labor issues. Somewhere around here I have a MILW blueprint which recorded work done during a strike period. It is for an section of line east of Butte. Shows how progress slowed to virtually nothing. Just one reason Lines West cost some money.
