I do not feel that the logo is a big deal anyway. I mean, you are playing the game from inside the cab so where will the logo be visible? (Unless UP puts a little decal on all their controls) You are still getting the realistic controls (whereby you may still learn to drive the real thing.) Removing a logo is not going to make the game any less realistic. My advice to all would be to play and have some fun! Maybe if it is a popular piece of software, Microsoft will make an editor (like flightsim) where you can design the loco any way you wish and you can add any logo that you want. Russ/NYC
All I can add re: the Microsoft "train game" is if it is half as realistic as many claim, there are going to be a lot of computer geeks with a newfound respect for and awe of locomotive engineers. If all the wrecks that will occur were real, the trial lawyers would own the world. There will be little or no creation of "freeware", as no railroad in its right mind will allow outside access by amateurs to record runs, and at least one real run will have to be fully recorded before programming could be done that would at all emulate the real thing. Every piece of track is different, which is why locomotive engineers have to "qualify' on specific track segments.
<font color="336633">In the end if people want UP Locos in MS train sim people will make them, its not hard to make new skins for games, take Rally Championships for instance, it was based on a couple of seasons ago in the British world rally, so people made new skins for the cars for the latest ones. as soon as you find out which of the files is the art for the locos people wil make UP ones, then put them on the web for people to download, If Up can police the Internet looking for them good luck, No one so far has been able to do that. Would it really be worth the cost for them to even try? Personally I dont really care, I will buy the game anyway what ever the paint on the Locos is.</font>
Everyone in this chat listen up..... I got 3 words to explain whats going on here and its so simple most haven't recognized it yet!!!! As Watash and some others that share a brain HA! It all comes down to only 3 words and sadly not many people share good knowledgable to know from (should I say?) RIGHT AND WRONG!!! How dumb can people be to climb into a real train and try to take off with it? Being that they played around on some dumb game that never showed them any or even the first thing about running a real one! This dicussion makes me sick! UP, UP what about UP? They are the only ones that don't believe that not one of us and yes I mean any of us have any common sence and the know how and difference of RIGHT AND WRONG? What I mean by "any of us" or "all of us" is the whole entire population of the USA and other countries! Not just us modelers and railfans..... Big deal if they want to not include themself in a simulator hey they aren't getting the any $$$ from the simulator companies like BNSF is. So why complain and let the industry choose their fate..... Thats how I look at it!!! And if they do anything to us modelers for using their logo oh well then why does companies produce tens of thousands of models with the UP logo on them anyway? If the logo was the case they wouldn't have it to buy on a -9 or an SD-40 even the Rivarossi Big Boys! Its not the fact of the logo its the fact of someone like me any anyone else boarding a locomotive and stealing it!!! Not the logo!!!!!
I don't know if we can call it 'stealing' a locomotive, cuz I mean, where are ya gonna take it? As for logos on models - I am fairly sure Athearn, Kato, Microscale, et. al. have to get permission to reproduce the logos. I don't think they have to pay a licencing fee though - does anyone know?
Some railroad logos are copyrighted, some are not. The only ones I know were definitely copyrighted were the "Chessie" logo and Conrail's "cracked wheel". A little encircled "R" appeared alongside those. Many logos of merged and abandoned railroads are considered "in the public domain" and may not be copyrighted. A used car dealer in Chicago attempted to copyright a bunch of them a few years back and extort the manufacturers and it was because of this that there is clear legal precedent for "public domain" logos. Since logos are really unimportant in the relationship of freight railroads with their customers (no one ever gave a railroad a carload of freight because of a pretty logo), most of them even today are not copyrighted, as this costs money.
I know that the B&O "Capitol Dome" emblem is copyrighted by and also owned by B&O Historical Society!!! I got this information directly all for the reason I want to make some bussiness cards that sport it and had to go through some red tape to have it done and I had to do a presentaion of why I wanted to use it on a bussiness cards so I been their and done that and it was a rought one to do and I hopefully have the permission to......
I heard a rumour Kato had to put up a nice little fight to get the CPR logo on the new SD9043MAC, so I guess it must be copyrighted Anyway, all this "Some one will take a train" stuff, there are a few things working against this theory: 1) MS Flight Simulator, how many North American Planes get stolen becuase the hijacker was playing Flight Simulator, thought it was really fun, so they stole a plane. If you were to steal a small plane at a regional airport it would be just about as easy as getting a train. 2) Maybe this is just a Canadian thing, but most units, when they are sitting in a yard for a few hours are just plaon SHUT OFF, or LOCKED UP. Yes, people do brake into cars , so they could brake into a train too, i guess, but it must be fairly difficult to hot wire a train? (Unless there is just an on/off switch 3) So now these people have passed security, and other RR personel, now they want to move this train. They move up the throttle, and would probably have a nice little probelm (at least with newer units) or the emergency brake going off, if you don't tell the computer that you are getting ready to run (this, at least is true with CNR locos--that is newer CN locos). You also have the dispatcher and switches against you.....I think you would be better off just going to the airport and stealing that plain! Happy Simmin! Dane
Hey all, Just an interesting sidenote. I purchased 3D Lionel Traintown and realized that all the equipment used in the game is either SF or (Yes you guessed it) Union Pacific. It just makes one wonder why they allow the use of their logo for some products and not others. Any ideas? Russ/NYC
Gregg, I recall the attempt by the individual to copyright the fallen flag logos. During that time, John Bromley of Union Pacific wrote a column in Trains Magazine clearly outlining his company's position on ownership of all Union Pacific logos, including the Shield, Shield with wings and the Overland Route Shield (I can't recall exactly which issue of Trains, but I have it in a box in my garage). You can add Union Pacific to the list of railroads that own the rights to their logos. As a side note, a copyright is denoted by an encircled "c" (©), while an encircled "r" (®) is indicative of a Registered Trademark. Although we speak of railroad logos in terms of copyright, most railroad logos likely fall under the Registered Trademark category, similar to the Nike swoosh, the Chevrolet Bowtie or the Ford Blue Oval. Most corporations register such unique symbols in order to allow them exclusive placement on products and supplies directly connected with their business operations including products, owned equipment, letterhead etc...
Rob, I agree with you 100%, locked doors just keep honest people honest! As for my knowledge of locked doors, I assure you it's from observation only. I may have been crazy enough to try a joy ride 20 years ago, but hopefully I've gotten smarter in my old age! Besides the railroad cops would have a pretty easy time spottin' me, I'd be the one hangin' out the window screamin'"HOW DO YOU STOP THIS SUMB#$CH"!!! When I railfan I try not to pose a threat, I mostly just stay in my car! I just thought it was pretty silly for UP to try to convince us that by keeping their logos out of the simulator they are going to prevent someone from stealing a locomotive! Perhaps the real response should have been, "Bill didn't offer us enough money"!! After all it ain't easy being Borg!!! 2slim
Well, well, I finally got on here again in spite of the white pages! How about that? While I'm here, I would like to sight another thing about Logos, Brand Names, and company identities. When I worked for Xerox Corp. we were warned upon pain of termination, to never, NEVER EVER refer to making a copy of anything by the "Xerographic Process" as "making a Xerox copy". The same thing, in most people's eyes, but that term causes the company to lose it's identity. You say you want to xerox this page, then photostat it, or photocopy it, (and there are others), then you have made the xerox term generic. Coka Cola lost their identity the same way. For years if you wanted a soda pop, someone would ask, "Do you want a soft drink?" and you would reply, "Yes I want an Orange Crush, or Grapette if they are out, or a Coke." Now you hear, "Hey want to stop for a Coke? Reply, "Sure make mine a Dr.Pepper, or RC". All the advertizing Coka Cola spent, went to advertize the industry, and the Copywright office refused to allow Coka Cola to retain rights to their own trade name. Coka Cola spent millions to try to get their name back. The same thing happened to Kodac, Kotex, Stephans, and even Cadillac. A "Coke" became any soft drink. Xerox became any kind of paper copy. Kodac became any kind of photo. Kotex became any kind of sanitary napkin. "Stephans's "Steffy" became any kind of ice cream. (Note Stephans company did not use any milk making their ice cream, it was only real cream!) Cadillac became the term for high class, classy, the best, only surpassed by the Rolls Royce, so for the utmost in quality, the term "It's a Rolls Royce" of lawn mowers, etc. They all lost their identity of their Brand product. Protecting the intergity of a Brand name is where the term "Brand New" came from. It was the best quality, not wornout, damaged, missused, or repaired with no more guarantee, so beware! Then the term "Like New" came along to prevent getting sued. When I worked for Redifusion Corp designing and building the pilot flight training simulators, we did one for the Boeing 747, and Bell Helicopter 222 system. Before it was turned over to Boeing, we had to test our systems. I did the pilot eye-point calculations to center of CRT screens, and continuity screen to screen. I landed the 747 safely several times. A few years later, I flew on a 747 and the pilot allowed me to look into the cockpit and identify things. He was amazed at how much I knew, It blew his mind when I told him I made a safe landing at 245 miles an hour, full flaps, landing gear down and locked, then reversed engine thrust, raised flaps and applied brakes at rollout! And I knew I would be three stories off the runway when I touched down! There was lots more, but the point being, if I had been on board, and something happened to both pilots, They agreed that I could have safely landed the plane at an airport! Redifusion had the best simulator (and most expensive) at the time, because we controlled every pixel. Some of the programmers even had birds fly across the screen, leaves blowing and wind waves blowing across wheat fields, and rain hitting the windscreen as you tried to take off from the Singapore airport! (The world's most dangerous at the time). It is a fact the several Navy pilot trainees actually bailed out of our simulators because after a couple of hours of intense concentration, it does become real when the monitor gives you hydraulic failure, rolls a fog bank over you, and your engine quits! There was one older pilot in England who had a heart attact in the simulator when he was taking off from Singapore and the monitor brought him into a fog bank then cleared it and the pilot was looking straight at the mountain! He colapsed and died in the cockpit seat! Yes indeed if a simulator is well done, it can be just like real! It is not like playing Space Invaders. There are many good reasons a company does not want to lose control of its identity.
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Gregg Mahlkov: Since logos are really unimportant in the relationship of freight railroads with their customers <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I fail to agree this you. Logos are VERY IMPORTANT! Its a major part of product branding. Its just like the nike swoosh or the golden arches. As an example, when you hear "its the real thing" most people think "Coca-cola". The logo, tag line, etc. is critical to creating a consistent image in the eyes of the public. Look at how agressively companies like Disney protect their logos and trademarks. Its not that they are mad about others making money off their creations, although thats part of it, they are concerned with others hurting their reputation. And before anyone says its not important to railroads... try this what do you see when I say "Super Chief"? I'm guessing it was the red and silver of Santa Fe. Now THAT is what logo protection and branding are all about. Scot
I still feel railroad logos are meaningless in the relationship of today's freight railroads TO THEIR CUSTOMERS. The universe of customers that are important to the Class I railroads has shrunk to the point that the persons responsible for routing 99 percent of this nation's railroad traffic would all fit in the same large auditorium. Any advertising that is done by the large railroads is basically political in nature. They spend a great deal of time and money cultivating the 535 people that count (US House and Senate) and do not want the public to push laws imimical to the railroads' interests. I spent 16 years in charge of the transportation function of a company that shipped and received over 12,000 cars annually. Shippers care nothing about "Super Chiefs" or other nostalgia. They want their freight delivered on time and for free if possible!
While I agree with Mr. Mahlkov's assertion that logos are relatively unimportant in the railroad's day to day dealings with customers, I feel that the discussion regarding UP's decision has gotten side-tracked (pun not intended, but fitting) from the facts of the issue at hand. While Mr. John Bromley has publicly explained that UP does agressively protect their rights to their logo and company trademark, that is not the main reason that UP is not allowing the use of its name and logo in the MSTS program. The UP decision is mainly one of limiting corporate liability that may arise from the misuse of the program, ever how slight that may be. As for Dane's comparisons between stealing a plane or a locomotive: 1) Even regional airports have at least a small staff that is on site at all times, while locomotives can pe parked several miles from civilization or security. 2) You don't need to hot-wire a train, as they can be regularly found ilding away on sidings in the middle of nowhere, sometimes with complete trains. This happens when a crew dies on the law and there are no rested crews to patch the train into the next terminal for several hours. 3) Maybe computers in new units will help with security, but there are still many SD40-2's and the like that only need a universal reverser level and the basic knowlege learned through the sim program to get them moving. The fact is that you, me and a million other people may never think of doing such a thing. But remember that it only takes one idiot to do just that and cause injury and damage, then claim that they learned how by using MSTS. I guarantee that if it ever happened, MS and BNSF will be paying settlements through the nose. That in a nutshell is why UP has made their decision. Kind of like insurance; you pay for it but hope you never need it. But if you ever do need it, you are glad that you planned ahead for it. You can call UP's decision not to allow their corporate identity on MSTS their own form of a Corporate Liability Insurance Policy. [ 14 June 2001: Message edited by: Kevin Stevens ]
Congratulations, Kevin, you have explained it extremely cogently. I hope this will put the subject to rest. Good work!
Kevin, I agree with you 100% on that post I couldn't have thought about it any better then you have! I mean it more or less, comes down to plain ole "Right and Wrong" with use of "Common Sence". They (UP) Choose to not participate being of insurance, and readiness if something would happen from one inconciderate idiot to ruin it for us all! Thats the way UP is is making themself ready to incorparate such things with other railroads who did participate and big law suits and such going on because that same inconciderate idiot claimed he learned how to manuver a loco or even help out the railroad by taking the trian without being on a payroll and said I learned this through a simulator game well here comes the lawyers and God only know who all to investigate and who looses this you ask, well the simulators do being the guy that took the loco or train for a joy ride on the wild side put any one of our lives in danger not know what that train may have had loaded on it, being he claimed the simulator game taught him "how to"!!!! "How to" is ok when your doing track laying or scenery, not in the real world taking off down the track with a train! it can and would be harmfull if something seriously went wrong!
