New But Old

Hi,
New guy here, retired machinery designer and builder from the Pittsburgh Pa area. I'm still actively consulting, recently returned to train modeling and in with both feet, scratch building a very small Nn3 chassis to be used in small battery style mine locos (not actually running on batteries but like this http://industrialrail.5u.com/images/mancha-mainliner.jpg ). I have had some good success getting that running well and discovering how unique such small devices are am investigating producing them (with one of my machine shop customers) as well as several versions of very small power trucks for sale.... and completing the layout that started all of this. That makes a site like this a must read. Hope to be able to learn a lot and maybe even contribute a little. Looking forward to it all.

 

Hi, and Welcome. Do you plan on a layout in addition to locomotive production? I remember seeing an article with a photo spread of electric mine locos many years ago. IIRC, most were battery powered, but some were powered from overhead trolley. Looking forward to seeing more of your product(s).

 

Welcome aboard and your ideas sound very interesting indeed

 

Welcome aboard, Tracktoo. I would like to hear about your career in machinery design and building.

 

Thanks to all for the welcome. It's appreciated.

Eagle 2: They had an operator, no remote control. In the Mancha picture that I linked above, the seat was like a typical metal tractor seat but most had nothing much fancier than a rectangular board, often mounted on the right side edge of the operator compartment. That had the operator sitting sideways which was convenient for operating forward or reverse with just a turn of the head. The height of the battery box was generally low enough that the operator could see over it when running in that direction. I have heard of units with dual controls but never have seen an example of that. Another not often recognized use of these types of locos was various industrial services. Check the link below for the Jeffrey Manufacturing Company 1928 catalog, a free Google books download, and then check specifically pages 92, 116, 631 thru 639, and then finally the mine applications in pages 663 thru 683 for more locomotive information. And further, you will find that catalog is extensive and has a TON of useful information for modelers on all sorts of industrial equipment, above and beyond extensive coal mine information. Well worth a peak, methinks.

For those further interested in periods of use, these locos were very common in mines of any measurable size, starting in the late 1800's but their heyday in the US is largely diminished, at least in coal mines. They may still be in use in gold mines out west, I just don't know for sure. As I understand it, the last coal mine built in the US with the intention of it being a locomotive mine was Mathies Mine near Pittsburgh, one that I saw regularly for a lot of years, and it was built in the late 40's or early '50's so where they are still seen, it would be an older mine that's still running. Shaft mines hoist the product from below on elevators so while they were used underground hauling cars to the hoist shaft, these wouldn't be seen above ground for that type of mine. For the drift mines they were used for everything. Haul coal trains out, empties in, small flat cars to haul equipment and supplies, trip cars to haul the miners in and out at shift change, etc, etc. As I see it, coal mines, especially drift mines, present MANY unique modeling opportunities. I've come to believe that the lack of modeling these trains is due to the lack of operating locos. Maybe that's just me.


Hytec: Yes, I'll be doing a layout. That's what got this thing started. Returned to the train hobby after decades away, thinking it would be some good retirement fun. In the early stages of planning the layout I decided I wanted a simple low profile mine loco like I had seen around Western PA as a kid, basically shuttling in and out of a mine shaft to a tipple. Nothing too elaborate but thought it would be a neat little feature and would complete the rail theme of trains, a trolley in the town streets, and of course, a coal mine train coming out of the mine! All things I had seen as a youth growing up in the Pittsburgh PA area. Well, I searched and searched and discovered nothing. Static, yes. Running, no. Then figured I'd scratch something together using an existing chassis from something small. Again, nothing small enough. In my research I discovered it needed to be a max of about 6' to the top of the body. In N scale that meant about 7/16" (11.5mm) total height off the rails and there simply wasn't anything close enough that I could find. The best I found was a narrow gauge chassis (Z track, narrow gauge, I liked that) at about 13mm and the body thickness still had to be added to that. It quickly became much too tall which just killed the effect of the low profile, the low tunnel entrance, the whole deal. So I decided that, with access to a very extensive machine shop, better equipped than most shops, I'd just build one. Well, I quickly discovered why there weren't any. They're small. REALLY small! Well, about a year later and a LOT of hours researching and testing (over 3000 test running hours... Yeah, I know...), I've got a really sweet performing, really small, selectable gearing for scale speeds from about 25 to 60 MPH, prototype chassis (10.4 mm high) that the shop I built it in has fallen in love with and has expressed an interest in actually jointly producing for sale. Just finished fitting and testing with DCC, all under the body that's less than 1/2" high, and so we're finishing the final design, will do a short production run of about 25 - 50 units and then decide what we want to do from there. And there's an even smaller one in the early stages of testing and development now, an extension of things learned in this venture. Not sure if that's viable as a production piece yet but we'll see.

Ironhorseman: If this gets off the ground as hoped there will be an HOn3 version for the HO guys, too. In HO that will allow for a straight trolley type without the battery box. Upper 30" scale height would be doable. The possibilities are exciting! At least to me.

Subwayz: Thanks. And if I can read into your screen name an interest in traction, that's another thing being deliberated and originated from my desire to have a trolley running city streets like I rode in Pittsburgh. An N scale trolley chassis that will be able to turn a radius as little as 26' N scale (2" actual) instead of the large radius required by most I've seen. In real life the PCC's in Pittsburgh could get down in the thirties that I'm aware of, howling and screeching every inch of the way, but they did it! And the other really neat feature which I've not seen is a low enough chassis profile so that it can be under the window height, affording the opportunity to put a believable interior in it instead of profile stickers of passengers hiding the running mechanism. A viable N scale trolley and running at appropriate scale speeds. It's exciting, at least to me!

BoxcabE50: Good eyes? Not really. It takes glasses. LOTS of glasses. If one pair isn't doing it, slap on another pair right over top, preferably of a higher power! If that's not enough, grab another pair. Hey, it works! Plus, chicks dig it! And at some point, when it starts to look silly, there's the lighted magnifier. Or... would you believe, "I do this stuff with my eyes shut". Hardly. But it sounds good! (I actually do double up the readers sometimes. Yes, it looks very silly.)

Fitz: I designed and built custom automated devices (and some just special odd devices) for industrial applications. Some you could hold in your hands, some were a truckload. Some were assembled on site. Quite a variety and never a dull moment. Typically, they'd tell us what they wanted a device to do and we'd design it and build it, furnished tested and running. Most often with a two week or better delivery. That was a huge part of our service. By volume, we did a lot of automating and customizing of valves for particular services but the variety of projects was endless. I started that company in the mid seventies and sold it about 9 years ago. I loved it but had had enough of the daily grind. I now do some consulting for a few manufacturers and shops that I knew from the good old days, small jobs only. The main product of the shop that I've been playing with this project in is my concept, design, and manufacturing method, complete down to the packaging and labeling. And that's how I have the access to some VERY nice equipment to do these things. Playing with machines is still fun when you don't have to deal with the minutia of daily operations. I fear this might find my threshold, getting it off the ground and running, but I've had a pretty good, easy few years now so, what the heck.

Well, that was probably more than any of yins (Pittsburgheze) ever wanted to hear but... that's who I am and what happens when I get to thinking out loud. Again, thanks for the welcome.

And for anyone interested in further info on mine locos, here's a quick link that has a lot more pictures and descriptions of mining locomotive prototypes. http://industrialrail.5u.com/

And for a real gold mine for all sorts of industrial equipment details and pictures as well as their industrial and mining locomotive line, this is a 1928 Jeffrey Manufacturing Company catalog, a free Google Books download. For mining locomotives and industrial locomotives, check pages 92, 116, 631 - 638, and 663 - 683. Then peruse the rest. You'll likely find something useful. https://books.google.com/books?id=v...=onepage&q=Jeffrey mining locomotives&f=false

 

Thanks for that detailed report. Your answer to me reminds me of some great experiences I had in the aviation industry.

 

T2, many years ago, Model Railroader published a spread of an O or HO city subway system operating underground. The modeler had installed clear plastic panels on the perimeter of his stand-alone table. That way the complete operation could be viewed both in stations and in tunnels, including intricate and interesting trackwork. You might consider a similar underground display and operation, rather than merely teasing the viewer with mine entrance static displays.

 

What would the price point be on just one of the mechanism, running just plain 9v DC?
If it's cheaper than the SeaRails mechanism, then I'll certainly be in for one or two. I've always wanted to build a little wood-bodied tram for my Nn3 layout, despite the fact that none of the Irish narrow-gauge lines I draw inspiration from had trams.

 

Welcome to the board, tracktoo. Ironhorseman, the Del Oro Pacific G-scale module club in southern California has just such an underground mine. Here's a link to a photo: http://www.carendt.com/wp-content/uploads/jeffmine1.jpg

Charley

 

Thanks for the links and ideas. I've been busy with my summer job but the chassis running and testing is ongoing. I have posted a link to this crude testing video elsewhere but thought it might be of interest to those who've posted recently. It's a shot of the second prototype chassis with a mocked up styrene body running on a test oval with 10 Nn3 tipper cars in tow. This was done to get a sense of what the final stuff might look like and to demonstrate the performance. As it is pictured it is running on Z scale track with the height of the loco about 5.8' off the rails in N scale (under 7/16"). To aid in perspective, in the background is a Bachmann N scale Plymouth loco with a hopper car sitting under a mocked up tipple. I think the ideas posted would have a chance of becoming reality with the components I've been working on and seeing this keeps me spurred on to complete it. It's been challenging but very rewarding when I see it working. Hope to get some honest work done again after the season ends in October. Enjoy!

 

Would a video or even just a photo of just the chassis be possible?
And what would the price-range be for just a plain chassis?

The mining loco is cool and all, but I'm interested in just the plain powered chassis for possible use with some of my Irish Nn3 projects.

What would really be excellent is if a chassis could be made to run on 4.5mm gauge track. That'd make it possible for me to actually see my Welsh narrow gauge ideas come to life.