There is very little activity in N scale steam - the Con-Cor 4-8-4 is here, and two companies are promising 2-8-0's (that have been "promised" for years now). Several references in the trade press have indicated that a 4-6-0 would be popular with N scalers, and I agree. But, the manufacturers say that other than USRA power, steam locomotive design is too road specific. However, both Baldwin and American built "stock" locomotives for those smaller railroads that did not have a locomotive designer on the payroll. While researching the Nevada Northern for another reason, I discovered the Nevada Northern Railway Museum website and its 4-6-0, No. 40, which is a classic design almost identical to 4-6-0's used by the Apalachicola Northern and the Arkansas & Louisiana Missouri and no doubt many other roads. The great advantage of this prototype is that is exists in operating condition, facilitating research on it. What do others think of this? [ 24 June 2001: Message edited by: Gregg Mahlkov ]
I think that a good running 4-6-0 would be a huge seller. I personally would like to see a mother hubbard version of it (Like Mantua has for HO) but I guess that would have to be road specific as it was mostly used on eastern roads. (Of course, we are in the era of limited run N-scale so why not?) Just give me good running N-scale steam, any steam, and I will be happy to retire all of my diesels Russ/NYC The Hoffman Valley Railroad NARA#28
Here are the USRA production figures by wheel arrangement; these figures do not count the "copies" of USRA designs built by RR shops: http://www.steamlocomotive.com/misc/usra.html Switchers 0-6-0 255 0-8-0 175 Road engines 2-8-2 Light 625 2-8-2 Heavy 233 2-10-2 Light 94 2-10-2 Heavy 175 4-6-2 Light 81 4-6-2 Heavy 20 4-8-2 Light 47 4-8-2 Heavy 15 Articulated locomotives 2-6-6-2 30 2-8-8-2 106 ************** Most mass production N steam has been of USRA design. Notable exceptions are the IHB 0-8-0, the N&W J 4-8-4, the ATSF 4-8-4, the J-3a 4-6-4, the PRR K4 4-6-2, the GN S2 4-8-4, the Bachmann 4-4-0 and the Reading 2-8-0. Announced but not released are the new Bachmann 2-8-0 (now due Oct 2001) and the MDC Old Timer 2-6-0 and 2-8-0 (due ???). With US N being a minority scale within the US market, and steam being a minority interest within N scale, I am not optimistic about many new mass production N steamers being offered. There are supposedly 40,000 serious N scalers in the USA. I don't know the demographics of the steam/diesel split, but for argument's sake let's assume 3 to 1 diesel. That gives us 10,000 steam modelers and 30,000 diesel modelers. Apporoximate retail price of new N steam is $200; for new N diesel it's $100. If a typical modeler has $200 to spend, he can either buy 2 diesels for $200 or 1 steamer for $200. Potential locomotive purchases extend out to $6 million for diesels (2 x 100 x 30,000) but only $2 million for steamers (1 x 200 x 10,000) and that is IF everyone in N scale buys one (steam) or two (diesel) of the new models (VERY unlikely). Recalling that manufacturers must make a sound BUSINESS decision before committing scarce tooling dollars, which are paid-out in full in advance of any future sales, and with the odds 3 to 1 against steam, which business decision do you think they are likely to make? Sentiment, nostalgia and charm are what draw many of us to steam, but that does not put a nickel on the bottom line. Don't get me wrong. I am captivated by steam. My grandfather hand-built a 1/8 scale live steam ATSF 0-8-0 in the late 1940's and I had my first ride on the tender, sitting in between his legs, with me pulling the steam whistle cord and shouting "Choo Choo, Poppy, Choo Choo" in the summer of 1949. I've ridden behind the N&W 611 as she blasted up-grade inside Elkhorn Tunnel near Bluefield WV with 18-car cars in tow, and she didn't miss a beat. I've seen the American Freedom Train 4-8-4 (SP 4449) at speed outside of Tucson AZ. I've chased Ross Rowland's ex-C&O 614 with the Chessie Steam special in Virginia. I think the two best hopes for future N steam models are for USRA designs or for specialty niche manufacturers like GHQ who offer conversion kits for existing models. The prototype-specific market is better handled by the brass importers, but that is whole different ballgames, since as limited production runs these are basically all hand-built models, at outlandish prices that few of us can afford. eNjoy Don B
Don, thanks for the breakdown on USRA builds, but PRR ordered more I1 2-10-0's from Baldwin in a single order (425) than the total built of all USRA designs except the light Mikado, so the numbers are not that impressive. PRR also had more K4s Pacifics, which was only one class of Pacific, than everything but the light Mikado. I also take exception to the ratio of Diesel to steam modelers you assume. I think as far as serious modelers go, the ones who spend steadily on the hobby, steam would be preferred were it available and of a good quality. Not everyone, even in N, wants to model the heaviest main lines railroads, so I think a ten-wheeler is an excellent all-around engine for the 1900-1950 period. Since the prototype I mentioned still exists, it could be used by modelrs of any year in the past century.
Gregg Your comments on the PRR I-1 Decapods and K-4 Pacifics are noted, but those are PRR specific prototypes. Now your target market is even smaller: one RR's design in a minority modeling era in a minority scale in the hobby. A new model has to have wide appeal to be successful. Slapping "ATSF" on a K-4 tender and passing it off as a Santa Fe locomotive worked to a limited extent for Minitrix in the late 1960's, but probably wouldn't cut it in today's market. The USRA figures posted above cover more than 70 railroads -- this would appeal to a wider range of modelers. Take a moment to visit that website here: http://www.steamlocomotive.com/misc/usra.html You and I are in our mid-50's, if I read your website info correctly, so we are old enough to remember steam. And as I noted above, a few of us have been lucky enough to ride behind or chase some of the restored excursion locomotives (which sadly now are mostly retired -- again). Many modelers model what they see or what they remember growing up with. Modelers in their 30's today missed the steam era by at least 10 or more years. Modelers in their 40's were in diapers when the last fireboxes were shut down. Part of the problem is that it is a Catch-22 situation: more N scalers would model steam if more N scale steam locomotives were available. But, for now, they are not, so most N scalers model in the diesel era instead. Part of it is also economics and the manufacturing process: a steam locomotive is more costly and complex than a diesel to cut tooling for and even more important more costly to assemble. Would you or I have the manual dexterity or skill to quickly and rapidly assemble with consistent accuracy and quality hundreds of sets of complex Walschaerts, Stephenson or Baker valve gear from its many tiny component parts? No robots here -- this is all done meticulously by hand after training -- you don't just put a person in front of a box of loose parts and let them fend for themselves. This is all done at a price, paid for in advance by the manufacturer or importer, before the first sale ever happens. Thanks for listening, Don B [ 24 June 2001: Message edited by: dbn160 ]
Hi all, Figures given for USRA design are really interesting. I still don't understand why Kato choose a heavy design for its mikado instead of light engines which were so much more frequent... Although I agree with the comparison between steam era/diesel era market in N-scale, one can think of the numerous modellers who are in transition era (given the numbers of first generation diesel made by manufacturers over the last years) This guys would certainly be happy to see more steam on the property (At least I would ) Adknowledging that late steam engines where often of smaller design running on branchline and shortlines, it could be a sound business decision to market a good running 260 or 282 to go with early diesels. For those who want to stay with steam, Atlas announce a EMD GP7 demonstrator marc
All right, let's float another small engine I'd like to see - a 63 inch driver 2-6-0 with equal driver spacing, like SP's M-6, or B&M's Moguls, or NH's moguls, or PRR's F3's. IHC uses this mechanism in HO with the SP boiler and a camelback boiler. Why not an SP, B&M, PRR, and CN boilers (and maybe an O&W camelback)for the one in N?
I just ran the Con Cor Greath Northern 4-8-4 this weekend. I liked the looks of the model, but I wasn't impressed with its running.
I don't know where you all buy your steam power, but I haven't paid over $100.00 for the best running steamer on the market. I am talking about KATO'S 2-8-2 Mikado. I now have 5 of them. NOTHING in N-Scale steam power can hold a candle to them. The next best engine is the Con-Cor 4-6-4 Hudson,(the early edition made by KATO). The Hudsons are 15-20 years old and they still run like watches. As in the new and wanted steam market, I would like to see 4-8-4's 0-8-0's 2-8-0's 2-6-6-6's and any fine running steam made. I don't want brass, I have been spoiled by the KATO Mikado and expect any other maker to produce steam power that runs as good as the mikado does. I will pay the price for the engines, but the engine better run good. Yes I have some of the new diesels, but steam power fits in better with the layout I have built. I am looking foward to what steam power comes out next. Make 'em run like watches and I'll buy 'em!!
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by porkypine52: I don't know where you all buy your steam power, but I haven't paid over $100.00 for the best running steamer on the market. I am talking about KATO'S 2-8-2 Mikado. I now have 5 of them. NOTHING in N-Scale steam power can hold a candle to them. The next best engine is the Con-Cor 4-6-4 Hudson,(the early edition made by KATO). The Hudsons are 15-20 years old and they still run like watches. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I agree 110%.
As I've stated before on the tooling issue, the quote from Kato was a three-to-one in time and tooling between diesel and steam respectively. My vote is USRA all the way and then have someone like GHQ do detail kits for specific roads.
