As a newbie, I'm suprised to see that participation in the N-Scale forum is 3 times greater than the HO board - WOW!
That could be for several reasons, but I think it is more evidence to support that N scale is more popular than the manufacturers and retailers want to admit. Depending on whose poll you believe, N scale has any where from 15% to 30% of the model railroad market share. I believe that number is much higher.
Hello Don, a warm welcome to Trainboard, especially the N scale forum We all know that n scale is best AJB, as an N scale manufacturer, I agree with you
<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by ajb: That could be for several reasons, but I think it is more evidence to support that N scale is more popular than the manufacturers and retailers want to admit. Depending on whose poll you believe, N scale has any where from 15% to 30% of the model railroad market share. I believe that number is much higher.<hr></blockquote> Hi AJB(who ever you really are) The written word can be a dangerous thing,because you are not looking at the peson who,s saying it,and you may miss his point entirely.Having said that,let me say that if you were not winking and smiling when you made the statement about manufacturers not wanting to admit that N scale is more popular than is known,I find this to be utter nonsense,and my question to you would be, why?Why would they want to do that?If I have misread what you said,please forgive me.By the way,sorry about screwing up the post above trying to reply to this.Gordon
Don, Welcome to Trainboard it is great seeing so many new members join in the past few weeks. The N scale forum here at Trainboard has always been the most active forum. I'm not really sure why although N scalers seem to be very more active and vocal . I dont think it is that manufacturers or retailers are not admitting it I feel there are a new generation of modellers as well as some HO converts who want more railroad for there space availablilty. Also N scale has gone in leaps and bounds with manufacturers quality and so many more models. Alan Curtis a fellow administrater here is a leading masnufacturer in N scale intermodal equipment so we get to see new models here before anyone else does. Once again welcome to trainboard if you have any questions fel free to email me.
The Colonel said "The N scale forum here at Trainboard has always been the most active forum. I'm not really sure why although N scalers seem to be very more active and vocal . " I have to agree with you on this point, N scalers seem to post more on any of the boards. However, on the Atlas board, the HO'ers have more posts and topics. HEY! LETS GET ON THE BALL OVER THERE!!!! There are a lot of different message boards that I follow. Besides this one and the Atlas one, there are a bunch on Yahoo groups, as well as in Delphi. It's great to hear and exchange so many ideas. Jeff
Welcome to the TrainBoard Don. I feel that most HOer's probably got started way back in the 1930's when N didn't exist, or they started from presents as a set that grew up with them in time. The younger fellows didn't have the space so adopted N as the best to fit their needs, and it grew from there. It wasn't really too close to scale, and ran baddly back then too. There is a generation gap between the two scales. We HOer's have been more steam engine oriented where the N scalers grew up with only diesels. There really wasn't room for much of a motor in an N scale steamer anyway, so the diesel body was the only alternative. Younger people have a tendancy to voice opinions more than we who were raised where "kids were to be seen and not heard" was the norm. HO became popular partly because the manufacturers were just getting started again right after the 1929 depression, then had to try again right after WWII, so they conversed with us individually and were much more friendly while trying to keep their business going. We wrote a letter to them, and they would write back to us. If we had a bad part, they sent us one free and appologized! That was good customer relations of course, because they cared about us. Disgruntled customers have, by word of mouth, bankrupted more than one High and Mighty Company! Most all the Ma & Pa manufacturers are gone now, replaced by huge corporations who are profit oriented. You younger N scalers are wealthier than most of us were when we were your age, so you have little thought to spend big bucks for an engine that we would have laughed at back in my day so far as quality. I bought a 1929 Pierce-Arrow convertible for what just one of your N scale diesels cost today and that was a fantastic amount of cash! When I got married, I was making a good living with a "take-home" paycheck of $28.00 a week, and there were no ready-to-run engines available, they were all kits costing $29.95 each and up. A weeks' salary! We even had to actually hand spike each rail, and learn to tap 00-90 threads for our screws to put our engines together. We had terrible track, compared to what you have to have today, but we didn't have derailments. You want "Scale"! How about your track and wheels? Everything else may "look" scale like for realism, but your flanges are still 6" long or your trains derail easily, they are just plastic! We boycotted plastic, demanding metal for years! Then the big companies took over and we all lost out, and they raised prices out the ceiling! What you can do: You must get together as a group and do letter writting and picket the manufacturers to get what you want, so long as you want it in the quantities they can afford too. We did, and the companies listened. Money talks, and that is all they understand. If you want scale wheels and track, or a variety of engines, then refuse to buy what the "Cheapo's" want you to accept. Don't be swayed by their advertizing. Think about it, there is no such thing as a "collectible" N scale anything made brand new today! So why pay a "collectible" price for it! A real honest to goodness N scale antique engine, isn't worth poop today because there were no metal ones made. You would be ashamed to have one on your layout when some one came to visit. They were junk, like Tyco HO engines were right after they bought out Mantua. Would you buy a Chattanooga Choo in N scale today? Neither would I, so stick up for your rights as their customer, and tell them I want quality, or I refuse to buy and will tell all my club members too! Tell them to look at the products Alan makes, and at a reasonable price for today! His cars track well, are as close to real scale as you could ask for, and he delivers! He also stands behind his products. He listens, and he is a model railroader himself, so he has the same experiences you do. The Big Shot companies in China, Italy (and its all out of our hands now), really don't care so long as they can make you buy and buy and buy. Then you are on your own! You buy it, then you got to turn right around and overhaul it, add the details they didn't supply, change the motor, gears, wheels, trucks and couplers, then re-paint it! Gee, we did all that as we put it together, and everything was furnished for the original price. See? N has come a long way for N, but you can make it be as popular as people think HO is or was. It is up to all of you.
<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by ajb: That could be for several reasons, but I think it is more evidence to support that N scale is more popular than the manufacturers and retailers want to admit. Depending on whose poll you believe, N scale has any where from 15% to 30% of the model railroad market share. I believe that number is much higher.<hr></blockquote> Perhaps the explanation is that N Scalers are generally younger than the average HO modeller. Younger people I believe would be more likely to actively use the internet, although, I know use covers all age categories. This may be why there are more N scalers on this board. This makes N scales future certainly look bright as the percentage of N scalers will steadily increase in proportion to the overall model railroading community. Recently, Model Railroader and a number of manufacturers started the World's Greatest Hobby promotion which is aimed at men ages 45 to 55 If I recall correctly. This is perhaps because this group generally has more disposible income than those of us with young families or who are starting out in our careers. I agree with the 30% figure. I would believe that it breaks down something like 60% HO, 30% N, and 10% others (although I have no direct evidence of these numbers). Look out HO, N scale is coming like a runaway freight!!
You also have to take into consideration those who have gone from "Horribly Oversized" to G"argantuan" or larger scales. Yes, my dad actually says that the HO are TOO SMALL for his fingers. Guess that completely cancels out N"il" and Z"iltch" for him. Lets just say that larger scales are more apt to those with big thick fingers, the jitters, and poor eyesight. And Large scale completey does away with the need to have a large indoor room ( but then you do need a large outdoor sit, of course! But it matters little what scale you are modeling in. What you do with it is all that counts.
Model railroaders in other scales, particularly HO generally don't have to carp and beg to have a model produced of their favorite loco, car, caboose etc. Chances are way better than not, if you have a favorite loco, car, caboose, etc, someone makes it in HO and probably O scale. Availability in these scales is limited only by the size of one's bank account. It seems to me that us Nscalers may un-knowingly or better yet, un-consiously suffer from a sort of inferiority complex. It is derived from the fact that this is the smallest of the popular scales and the fact that we,(especially in the past) constantly have to remind most of the manufacturers of model trains that we haven't all fell off the planet yet. This leads me to believe that N scalers are somewhat the "rugged individualists" of the model railroad community. It is because of this, we are a closer knit group as a whole. I frequent the local train shows that come through my area every year and participate in several of them with my Ntrak club. It has been my observation that N scale clubs are just more friendlier than the other scale clubs. I have seen behavior range from mild disdain to downright hostility in these clubs over the years. This played itself out four years ago at a very large 2 day train show in my area and was a major deciding roll in why I chose N scale over HO. I was looking to get back into HO and already had a good amount of locos and rolling stock that I used to run on my uncle's HO layout. I couldn't even get any local HO club members to look my way and when I finally did get someones attention he threw a club business card at me and told me to call them after the show, that they were too busy to answer my questions. In disgust, I wandered around until I came to one of the two Ntrak clubs in attendance. Well the rest is history. I sold off the Horribly Oversized stuff and made a new start. I think this may be part of the reason that this and other model railroad sites are very strong in Nscale participation. We serious Nscaler tend to walk a fine line between joy and frustration. Joy, when a new product is released that we want or need, and frustration when we want or need something that doesn't exist in our scale. But this has never stopped us from having fun. and after all, fun is what it's all about
Though I have yet to buy any of his great intermodal equipment, I believe that Alan Curtis is one of the many reasons that there are so many converts to N-scale. He, and other manufacturers, are giving us what we want, and unless you have a large space, you can build a lot larger intermodal yard in N-scale. Believe it or not, also, the lack of stuff even attracts people to N-scale as it becomes a challenge to create equipment that you want. It is a part of the hobby to have to build things and is satisfying when you build something on your own that nobody has created before. At least, this is my 2 cents worth! Russ Hoffman Valley RR (N-scale)
Fellow modelers, I have a few things to say for my 2 cents worth.. Its trains right? Well that question leads into another question. Its all for enjoyment?... G/O/S/HO/N/Z whatever scale. Its for ones personal enjoyment! I work on all scales! I repair and paint all scales, but my personal collection enjoyment is HO. Simply because my first train was HO and when gifts were given to me for birthdays and Christmas it was HO. So I stuck to it. If it were N scale back then, I'd still be N scale... As the fine line of rarity in scale. Because noone made a 2-6-6-4 in N scale, for example. I am in HO and noone has made an affordable HO scale Yellowstone 2-8-8-4. Well besides in Brass. and with the plastic today. It stomps brass in the ground with the reliability! I've had my hands on a number of HO/N scale brass models and 75% of them were horrible! Beautifull detail, but were poor running loco's! And this was right out of the box! I have had a number of HO/N scale plastic models in my hands as well, and right out of the box I bet money to the fact that the plastic out of the box compared to the brass out of the box. The plastic was a better preformer! Anyway back to the "yellowstone" loco. I'm HO and if HO was so ummm how can I say? popular, where is the Yellowstone locomotive (besides the Cab Forward). In any scale no matter what scale it may be your going to have "odds" loco's not made but went down in history for one reason or another that the companies isn't going to make. Well their for, thats were guys like me come in. I'm a pure 100% customizer from the word go! I wanted a B&O EM-1 Yellowstone in the worst kinda way! So it made me mad when I seen noone made one! Besides in brass that would have costed me $2,400 to buy! Well I got to thinking of the skills I have and started customizing a Rivarossi Big Boy into an EM-1 Yellowstone! Which the first one I done, it was cab number 7600 My favorite loco! I still to this day have a few things to rebuild/redesign on it! Being when I customized it I was the age of 14! And yes guys, the picture of my EM-1 that I have posted in trainboard here is the exact loco i'm speaking of! Its as it was since I done the customization to it! But I found some other information on it that I have to recustomize it being its not correct to the real EM-1's. So, I loved that loco enough to cut up a Rivarossi Big Boy to make one. Ohh well! One isn't much, I now own 4 Rivarossi "Yellowstones" that are B&O EM-1's. That were Rivarossi Big Boys. Plus I have a original Rivarossi Big Boy untouched by me! Its still Union Pacific and its still a Big Boy. Maybe one day I'll own a whole fleet of the B&O EM-1's.. The B&O bought 30 of them! I got 5 already! So, you see its not the fact of the scale. Or the avalibility always. Its the fact of what scale you got into when started into the hobby and if you wanted to change and sell the stuff that was the begining point of you in the love of this hobby. Its not nothing to do with scale or avalibility... I will agree with the guys that have spoke of the older fellows with eye sight problems, and all and I know that to be true..... One thing out of all that though.. They still play as a grown kids, (like us all), and have fun with trains because of the love of the hobby... Its one hobby you either love or hate. Theirs no in between. No matter what scale... Its still trains.... Who cares which scale is the most popular? I don't..... I love HO, Watash, he loves HO, Paul Templar he has ventured in alot of scales, Colonel, he loves N scale, Russ, he loves N scale... See where i'm going???? Its not the scale and its popularity its the actuall love of trains and all and the space you have to work with. All you guys.... This might be a kicker... I have a close relative, (a cousin) and believe it or not... Hes got a collection of each scale! From G scale to N scale! I mean a HUGH collection.... And the crazy thing is.. My one scaled collection (HO) is the size of his multiple scale collection! But if your in a scale that doesn't make something, you can always have someone make it for you that does customizations or make it yourself. And as Watash and I. And as Watash has said.. The scale factor is right.. Real wheel flanges were 1 inch in width and length. Look at the flanges on your rolling stock and loco's! Thats not one scale inch long or wide! It would never stay on the tracks if it were scale. Sorry guys... just my 2 cents and my point of view... No pun intended... Keep modeling and HAVING FUN thats the most important thing. If your not.... Your missing the point of the hobby!
Hey John, That's more like 4 cents worth! (LOL) However, you are correct. I have chosen N-scale as my choice for modeling but I too like trains of any scale ('specially the real ones ) Heck if it weren't up to space and money, I am sure everyone on this N-scale board would dabble in different scales. Happy Railroading! Russ Hoffman Valley RR (N-scale)
Funny you should mention other scales..... I still have most of my HO scale stuff, but I've been slowly donating some of it to the RR club here in town. I'm keeping ALL the Frisco, but most of the rest is fair game.
I am the manager of a model train store and N Scale accounts for over 50% of my total sales. Here in Victoria, we have 3 N Scale groups and 2 HO groups, As well, we also have several N Scalers who prefer to model on their own, prefering to stay away from the club scene. However, I still think that this N Scale board is the best around and that N Scalers find more common ground than at other boards. Cheers. Terry
Two years ago you might have been able to bring me back to HO, but not now. With all the new stuff that has been released, at the rate that it has been released, I could own a 12 bedroom mansion and would still stick to N scale. (except in the garden)
I think it's because N-scalers have enough room on their workbench for models and a keyboard. HO and larger modelers need all their space for their models. I tried to put happy, smiling, faces here to show I was attempting humor but don't see how to do it in the new forum. Probably some option I have shut off.
Different forums are dominated by different scales for several reasons that are difficult to figure out.
My family and friends look and see trains. I look and see therapy. Even just watching a little train go round and round soothes the old heart. My biggest beef has been that the pace of life these days places a premiun on spare time and I cannot do all the things I want. What with the demands of a job during the week and family functions on weekends, weddings, birthdays, graduations, holidays, etc. [the bigger the family the more functions] time to work on trains seems to get less and less. Next weekend is my niece's daughter's birthday. There will be several kids there as usual. This time, I am bringing a power pack, some Kato unitrack, and engine or two and some rolling stock. I am going to run trains and I am willing to bet those kids will want to run them too and not run around like a bunch of Neanderthal hunter gatherers. And that will do my heart and all the other adult's hearts good.
Watsh and others have really good points to which I'll add a few ideas... - I think by and large n-scale tends to attract younger people as the scale can be difficult to work with as you get older and my eyesight starts to deteriorate. This is by no means a hard and fast rule, but I think a lot of people that start in n-scale move to HO or even O as they get older. - Being younger (or young at heart!) I think n-scalers tend to utilize online resources a bit more and also purchase online quite a bit more. My local hobby stores all seem to be filled with HO people when I go in them and very few n-scalers. One of the stores told me that n-scale sales were nearly 40% of their sales up until about 3-4 years ago and now the sales have fallen off dramatically since they don't do much online sales. They aren't sure why, but reading the various n-scale forums online it seems like we buy more of our stuff online. I think the HO guys like to see the product first and often buy it at a local shop. - I still think n-scale is still a much smaller percentage of the model railroad market. If it was that lucrative and had that many customers there would be a heck of a lot more product available. HO products seem to outpace n-scale product 3:1. All that said, I love n-scale and HO simply looks HUGE to me. I love the scale of the modeling you can achieve and outside of a few frustrations with the difficultly in getting fine detail nailed down (because n-scale is a lot less forgiving to the scale size of things) the expanse of the model area in a small space is great. The recent advances in model detail is wonderful and will only get better in the future. So welcome to the n-scale construct and thanks for taking the red pill.
