More Prototypical N-scale Models: Good or Bad?

Just for curiosity's sake, I'd like to do a no-holds barred poll (with comments) about whether you think the trend for more true to prototype models in N-scale is a good thing, or a bad thing, or something in-between.

I'm not offering a definition of "good" or "bad" because part of this poll is for you to explain your positions.

Let's make this civil and keep a thick skin as I think there are some strong opinions on either side. I think it will be interesting to find out what the reasoning is behind the answers.

Cheerio!!

Bob Gilmore

 

I think this is a doubled edged sword. On the one hand, the models do look much better, but on the other, the prices is going up and up and the cars and locomotives are getting more and more delicate. A case in point is the FVM GP60M. Great looking locomotives, but it is pretty difficult to not break all the under sill details just to install a decoder.

 

The only bad reason I can state... and it is a BIG one... is that the more realism built into the models ... the more likely the cost of the model will be higher. It won't necessarily be due to the cost of materials or even that of assembly/decoration... it will be more so the limited interest there may be for 'that particular' highly detailed model. That means the manufacturer will have to sell at a higher cost due to lower unit sales to specific modelers.

One of the 'accepted' realities of N scale 40 years ago... was that the 'close enough' to prototype was a fact of life. Therefore, if you wanted to model in N scale you bought whatever was available and modified it or accepted it for its flaws. It was mediocre models in a take-it or leave-it era. This was a problem for N scale and it very likely stunted the growth of the scale among model railroaders.

Most model railroader 'now-a-days' are NOT really interested in modifying something that would require more valuable TIME from running trains. Just look at the comments from manufacturers about the lack of interest in building kits... versus buying ready-to-roll. Modifying and super detailing the models in N scale is a real pain in the as-pirin; and thus, it is really something that is much more popular in larger scales.

So...
The BAD is - expensive
The GOOD is - more time to play instead of fussing over missing details or incorrect models; interest to draw in more N scalers; not having to accept mediocrity; raising the bar on detail and fidelity gives respect to our scale.

 

Obviously we have come a long way since the early years of N scale with better shells and some separately applied details that stand out much better on both steam and diesel. However the more separately applied details the more careful something needs to be handled unless those details can be cast in something like delrin. There is a limit in N scale to how fine one can make handrails for instance before they are damaged or bent every time one takes it off the rails and I think we have reached the limit in this small scale. There has been a trend toward more in scale driver sizes as related to steam which has improved the look of many newer models and resulted in more accurate wheelbases and this I accept as a good thing.

However there is a limit again due to the smaller size in this scale and whether folks are looking for a museum display piece or something that can be reasonably handled and run. For the latter there does need to be some compromise or one will be forever repairing damage over time due to handling. All those individual details do make a loco or car look nice but in my opinion not something that can be regularly handled at something like Ntrak meets.

 

Pre DCC, which seems to have added $25 or so to each loco, it has been shown time and time again that we get much better N Scale locos for the same inflation adjusted prices of the 1970's. So, unless you argue that stuff should be cheaper now than it was in the past, there really isn't much of an argument that it adds to cost. Now, you might argue that it really should be that way, because the middle class wages have stagnated, and/or other electronic stuff has gotten way cheaper over the years, and I can see that POV.

That said, the market for other electronics is almost endless, and the MRR market seems stable to slightly declining at best. Spreading out research/design/mfg. over a few thousand units vs. ten thousand units in the days of yore is a masterful job by the mfgs., but they can't really lower prices under these conditions, even after going to China.

 

Let's see we don't have a definition for "Bad" or "Good" so, I'm not even sure where to start. Making it even more difficult to explain. I hate polls like this, as the best we are going to do is run around in circles, spinning our wheels.

So, here's my take on the subject. Not an explanation or a definition. I'll leave you to decide. Just my two cents and I take chump change.

It used to be real easy in any gauge to pop the shell off and do maintenance such as lube the internal parts, change out a brush, put a new light in, add directional or constant lighting, in general keep a locomotive clean and operating well. Now you are liable to break all kinds of parts (jumping and springing all over the place) getting the locomotive apart, never mind the difficulty with some (Athearn's HO and N Scale) locomotives when it comes to installing a decoder.

I have a locomotive that has been sitting on my work bench (a friends HO Athearn C something or the other) for sometime now. When I went to pull the shell off, what do you think happened? I broke it. I called Athearn to get a new shell. Yeah, like that's going to happen. Nope, you can't buy a shell by itself but you can buy a whole nother locomotive. "We don't sell parts...anymore" was the answer, from the rep on the phone. Grrrrrrrrr! It's not the Athearn I used to deal with. Sigh.

It used to be we widget, bolts and nuts, sliding washers and rivet counters used to add on our own details from resources like Details West. Not so much anymore, the eyesight isn't as sharp, the hands tend to shake at the wrong time and darn what's that hose doing where a window wiper should be?

I once said, this Hobby is headed back to the days of pre-Athearn and other providers. It was a hobby for the affluent or those who could machine and hand craft their own toys. Today, things are out of the realm of my budgetary abilities. My requisitioning days are all but over. I depend on Swap Meets and some well priced (low priced) stuff on the (less then popular) auction web-sites.

In summation, I purchase low end, older Analog DC stuff. Ie., A Kato C 30-7, and yes I will need to add the decoder and those intricate parts that make me so happy. I can drop in a new motor, those essential gears and all the rivets I want and be perfectly happy with the model.

So, I won't vote...don't see much sense in it and leave it to you turnout men, to decide what this poll proves.:uhoh:

 

At some point long ago N-Scale transitioned from being toy trains to a hobbyist's medium. That transition would not have occurred without the dedication to realism, and the natural expense that required.

For those that lament that this hobby is getting too expensive, do you really long to go back to the early days of hyper-exaggerated detail and speedy, jackrabbit locomotives? Personally, I can't afford half the stuff I'd like to obtain for my hobby today. But at the same time, I'd be a fool to trade in the fine items I have today for the junk that was coming out 30, 40, and 50 years ago.

As a result, I know my limits, appreciate what advancements in technology has brought us, and don't whine about what I can't afford. It makes me appreciate what I do have all that much more.

 

If the models looked like they did 30 years ago when I got my first N scale engine, I would have lost interest by now.

I am trying to recreate something in miniature, so the details help me, and look right to me.

 

As I explained on another post...adding all those fine details is driving the cost way up. The 'average' modeler can hardly afford anything 'new'. Add to that how fragile the models are now becomimg (ex. FVM GP60M ) and one has to believe the pendulum has swung a tick to far one way. No one is saying things should go back to the 'clunky days'. Better quality control and sharper lines is good. Crisp 'molded' on detail is acceptable with most. Seperate details for the more adventuresome is ok too. Just find that happy medium for all.

Truck mounted coupler vs body mounted is and will always be a sore spot. Some equipment wont run well with body mounted couplers. Not everyone has 48 inch radius curves. Most are lucky to be able to scrounge enough room to run a 32 inch HCD with 15 inch radius curves !

All the improvements in the world wont help if a modeler can't use them. The improvements look good....but are they actually functional enough on the track running or being handled or are they best suited for a hermetically sealed display case on the wall.

There was a time...not long ago...where it seemed the 'sweet spot' was being attained. The models looked pretty darned good and it only took a minimal amount of 'modeling' to get it as perfect as one wanted it. RTR is just that...'ReadytToRun' It doesnt have to be perect to put it on the track and take it for a spin...it just has to run !! And...the cost wasnt wayyyyyyyyy out of reach for most !

If the manufactures want to swing the pendulum farther and make models that are of museum quality and display case ready...thats ok too. In My Humble Opinion the hobby will only suffer once all those display cases are filled by a small minority of hobbists and the rest of the 'average' hobbyists...the majority...are left wanting for something afforable they can run on the rails !!

Thnxs

 

Whoa there, This is not an all or nothing thing. We had very good running locomotives before DCC came on the scene. I am talking about the mid '80's and early '90's. As a matter of fact, those locomotives perform better than the newer ones because they had lead for weight rather than some pot metal pseudo weight. My Kato U30C's are still among my top performing engines along with the E8's and Atlas GP35's and RS1's and RS11's.

The recent increase in prices has just about forced me out of the market. I am just thankful that I bought all those Atlas 90 ton hoppers at $2.00 and $2.49 back in the '80's and not the $17.95 they want now. I wonder what that model would cost with separate grabs and body mounted couplers.

 

I said equal.

Look, I think the models as they sit are perfectly fine. under the hood I think some could use a bit of TLC to make them decoder friendly, yeah I'm looking at atlas RS units because my Proto of choice had a big chunk of RS3's.

All the extra details and what not, well I can take care of that when the parts are available. I'd love to add those Brake line hoses to each and every car I own but they aren't made any more, 5 cable MU hoses as per SP&S prototype well that'd take a bit of work but I'm willing and the number boards... someone makes 3d printed ones for N scale so I don't have to settle for the non proto look.

Other than some cash, all I need is time. To be honest everyone has different preferences, Like you Bob I appreciate the extra mile you take to make your models look amazing but at the same time I appreciate George for the amount of creativity and excellent modeling he does. Both ends of the spectrum and everything in between, I guess you could say I like everything I see my fellow modelers doing because I'd like to find a happy medium like that. There seems to be more camaraderie between N scalers than most other scales because we are continuously pushing for everything in N scale to be better.

 

Better detail, sure and I have tank cars and center beam flat cars that I’m afraid to take out of the box much less actually run them on my layout. Rolling along the right of way I can practically see the bits and pieces falling off them so as to derail the next car in line. There is something to be said for the durability of the old MDC tank car be it ever so humble in appearance. Not to mention I could often pick them up for $5 apiece.

And before this trend towards greater and greater detail I never had to return some piece of rolling stock because it was damaged in transit or assembled incorrectly/poorly. I mean seriously folks; if I wanted a kit I’d have ordered it that way.

Likewise before the advent of the DCC ready locomotive I never received an Atlas loco that didn’t run, right out of the box. Since then about one in three DCC ready locos I’ve purchased online has arrived suffering from DCC disease; wherein the little tabs that transfer current between the PC board and the motor don’t make contact between the two. The lights come on but it doesn’t move.

Above all else, as so many others have mentioned; cost, cost, cost. If I had not gotten started in this hobby 30 years ago I sure wouldn’t begin today. $30 for a tank car? $100+ for the average diesel locomotive!! Yikes.

Still in all; I do have some of the newer and more detailed rolling stock and locomotives and they do look nice on those rare occasions when I’m feeling particularly ambitious and I take them out of the package and place them on the trac . . .one moment while I find that handrail that popped off. . .dang! Now the spring in the body mounted coupler has turned itself sideways I thought for sure I had fixed all of those. . .Oh well, perhaps tomorrow.

 

N Scalers are lucky, because for the most part, costs, at least for locomotives, have tracked to Inflation...in the old days, N-scale was more expensive than HO, now it's less, because the increase has tracked to inflation.

Now in HO, compare the price on an Athearn RTR loco compared to what the same thing in a BB cost in 1990. Then use an inflation calculator to get the inflation price and prepared to be disgusted.

I'm not talking Genesis or BLI here, I'm talking a standard BB come RTR loco. The price increase is disgusting. N-scalers can at least see that the cost increases...in engines track pretty well to the CPI.

Doesn't make it easier to afford, but more affordable than HO at least.

 

Yes, we have the technology to make N scale more prototypical, and yes, prices are going up. But considering the alternatives, if you're concerned with that, you might as well leave the hobby (or just scratchbuild everything). HO scale has gone for a more prototypical look, and their prices have gone up accordingly. I chose N because I lack the space (especially curve radii) for HO, and there's not enough available models in Z scale, so N is the perfect fit. This is not a new phenomenon, it's just part of the natural evolution of the scale, beginning with knuckle couplers and low-flange wheels.

 

Both. My reasoning is different strokes for different folks. There are those that want the fidelity of the more accurate models. On the other hand, newbies may be turned off by the higher prices. Atlas has two lines, Master and Trainman and I believe that is the best approach, overall, for N Scale.

 

Yes...but how many of the other decent manufactures of locomotives and rolling stock have a 'Trainman' AND a 'Masterline" of products ?

 

In the last five years or so I've been surprised by the number of new models that look great, but simply won't operate reliably without significant modifications, or at all. Starts with many of the new Atlas diesels, that pull less than half of what they used to with frame cutouts, slippery wheels, etc. Banned to the display case, where they look just great sitting there. Add to that some epic failures on out-of-the-box cars that also look fantastic, but with .022 flanges/narrow treads, low floors, and body-mounts, derail much more easily (not just flanges) and usually shed lots of wonderful detail parts even when they simply derail. It used to be the only missing parts on equipment was the stirrups, now there's brake rigging, handrails, nearly everything, cast separately in styrene and fragile enough to break on a simple derailment.

Some things seem to work very well - I've transitioned all track modifications to Peco C55, added lots of lesser (if not .022-flanged) metal wheels, experimented fine with some body-mounts on selected cars, lowered floors with reckless abandon. The floor lowering in particular has big payoffs in appearance, more than body-mounts and low-profiles combined, so I'm delighted to see new cars coming out with that feature. I've tinkered with DCC and decided it's just one more thing to fail that I really have no good use for and requires a lot of extra track cleaning that DC doesn't seem to need, at least for my heavier-than-average power. I would use it if I had a layout that could handle more than two people.

But I'm also astounded at guys that can't even figure out which end of a paint brush to use to paint trip pins and complain loudly about it, taking longer on the keyboard than simply cracking a jar of black and setting up a production line and check the pin height at the same time.

 

Doesn't matter. There will be those that only do the Master level and others that only do the Trainman level of quality. We need them both.