Mission impossible if accepted

VinceP Jul 20, 2018

  1. VinceP

    VinceP TrainBoard Member

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    To start off I model in dark scale HO.

    My era is the fall of 1979.

    My predicament is this I plan on running SD40-2's/GE's plus tunnel motors and 89' racks and tofc/cofc.

    My layout room is 7' X 11' Max length, layout will be at a Max width of 2'6".

    Layout will be 2 levels with a lower staging area below these 2 levels.

    Now I've been thinking (do I smell smoke) I will have to do a hidden 30"/28" radius incline/decline behind a removable backdrop between levels figuring i'll eat up 6 inches for dual track.

    Can't run a helix no room.

    This will leave me 2' for layout and scenery area.

    Thinking level one would be some industry, feed seed & implement supply, plus a scratchbuilt grain elevator, a team track, cold storage, small drop yard for setouts for the local switchers, small shop for the power, this is going to be set in the Western Region based off the DRGW/SP

    And where the trains enter and leave the layout will be behind a pair of deep cutsand or tunnels to hide the incline/decline openings.

    This is where I'm at right at the moment

    Should have a sketch up later.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 20, 2018
  2. ppuinn

    ppuinn Staff Member

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    Vince:
    I'm afraid the max footprint of 7x11 feet, 30 inch radius curves, and max 30 inch shelf depth you've described will be significant obstacles along the road to building your empire in HO scale.
    If I'm interpreting your description correctly, to access the hidden incline by passing behind deep cuts or into a tunnel will require a teardrop-shaped loop at each end of the room to get from the visible front of the 30 inch shelf to the hidden dual tracks passing along the back of the shelf. A 30 inch radius teardrop at each end of the room will be at least 5 feet in diameter and 7.5 feet long, meaning each teardrop will have to start ballooning out beyond the front of the 30 inch shelf more than 7.5 feet from each of the 7ft walls...so your room is probably 4 or 5 ft too short for 2 teardrops that big.
    If you reduce your radius to 24 inches, you will still need to begin the left teardrop bulge beyond the front of the lower level 30 inch deep shelf at about 5.5 feet from the left wall...which is directly under the point 5.5 ft from the right wall a 24 inch radius right teardrop on the upper level would start its bulge out to loop around to the back of the layout on the right side. Even with the 24 inch radius, both teardrops will stick out so far that access to the back of the shelves and especially the corners will be prohibitively long unless you build in a pop-up access (which will be VERY uncomfortable to use--sadly, that's the voice of experience talking).

    The length of the 30 inch radius teardrop is about 188 inches (15.7 ft), and the 24 inch radius teardrop is about 150 inches (12.5 ft) long. For one track to rise enough to pass over a lower track (about 3 inches) will require about 12 to 14 feet with proper vertical easements (or about 7 feet, if one track climbs at 2% while the other descends at 2%). It might be possible for you to run from one corner to the opposite diagonal corner, turn and run along the long wall to the third corner, and then pass over the lower track as the track runs to the other diagonal (fourth) corner. But such a design will result in only 6 feet of level track in the first and fourth corners, and 10 to 12 inch long turnouts will limit car spotting opportunities even more.

    Although I've rained on your parade, I would strongly urge you to re-examine your givens and druthers (needs/wants) and see where you can make some compromises to downside your plan so it can more easily fit within your space and yet still capture (at least some of) your dream. We'll hang in there with you, and offer feedback.

    Do the 7x11 dimensions refer to the actual walls or just to the space that is available? A Floorplan of your space, showing walls/doors/windows would be helpful.
     
  3. VinceP

    VinceP TrainBoard Member

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    30" and 28" are strictly the hidden loops 26" minimum on visible mainline as a standard with maybe some 28" radius curves are on the layout.

    Only 24" or 22" radius would strictly be at 2 of the customers and 18" isn't even being considered.

    Yes I know that wall to wall end to end 7X11 isn't much to work with but I have laid a test loop down at the extremes and my walthers passenger cars and auto racks, my accu-rail auto racks and flats have actually performed very well on the hidden loop test track albeit on single level then tried 2 levels on temp risers.

    As for the incline/decline section aka the loop it functions better than I thought using test blocks to make a real test run with 2 sd40-2's and a athlas u33c and 20 racks.

    It was a success now onto building the layout around the loop.

    I'm really really Amped to build this layout.

    And for those wondering I've had a lot of people tell me it can't be done.

    Guess what I'm doing it and it's working.

    The loops for allowing the thru players/trains to run.

    Then I go back to doing my local and switching work between staging.

    And not trying to sound like an A$$ or anything if i listened to everyone that said it couldn't be done I'd be out of the hobby.

    All I have to say is spend time and a little $ on white or brown wrapping paper measure out what your trying for and see if it fits try various radius curves, see where a switch will or won't work yes my straight track is maybe 5' give or take but it's mine it functions I'm extremely happy about it so be happy.
     
    ppuinn likes this.
  4. ppuinn

    ppuinn Staff Member

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    Thanks for the additional info on the incline loop radius. I’m also glad to hear you’ve already had a successful test of the incline loop. What percent grade are you planning to use?

    I’m looking forward to seeing your track plan.
     
  5. Yannis

    Yannis TrainBoard Member

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    Looking forward to it as well! And i am also looking forward to ppuinn's feedback, i learned a lot from it and it helped me a lot in designing further trackplans.

    If i understand it correctly you are planning for a no-lix around the walls?

    Have you considered sending the helix in an adjacent room and hide it there?
     
  6. VinceP

    VinceP TrainBoard Member

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    2% maximum from each level with a taper off aka level spot to hit each level.

    Yes a long nolix restricted space dictates this and the train room goes either into the bathroom or outside.

    As the only other outlet is the hallway and can't block that it's already narrow enough place was built in the late 50's.

    Played around some more and did a test of the big loop on what would represent all levels and it went flawless until a #58 broke on the uphill side of level 2 aka top level 11 cars behind the power..

    Need to order a couple of step packets now but successfully made 3 full rounds 5 units 67 cars was cool until the break in two.

    Saved 38 cars the rest got away as I caught the main group, but 18 got away nothing I could do but watch.
     
  7. ppuinn

    ppuinn Staff Member

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    Ouch! Did any make the big plunge into Neidzafixen Valley?

    So, if the loop climbs around the outside of the room, are you planning to use lift-out, drop-down, or swing out sections near the doorway?

    You may have already considered many of these factors, but in case you haven't...
    There is a dynamic interaction between the height of the operator's eyes (is the operator short or tall, seated or standing), level elevation (34, 41, 48 inches versus 40, 47, 54 inches), level separation (7 inches vs 5 inches), middle and upper shelf depth (distance of front fascia from backdrop), and middle and upper shelf thickness (height from shelf surface to bottom edge of front fascia of next highest level), which will affect how far you can see into the back of a shelf or level. If you haven't already, you may want to experiment with what combinations of these factors work best for your circumstances. Try reaching in to couple and uncouple cars, re-rail cars, check the alignment of turnout points (can you comfortably see them without having to bend over; is there enough light from the ceiling lights for you to see them without having to install under-the-shelf-lights (which will necessitate the fascia of the shelf above to be a little lower, so you can't see the lights).

    Do you expect to work the layout while seated on a wheeled chair or stool, or while standing? If the bottom of the front edge of the middle shelf is 18 inches from the backdrop, and you are sitting (so your eyes are at--for example--49 inches), then you will be able to see the top of a train car on the bottom level, but only if the car is on a track that is 12 or more inches from the backdrop (that is, you could see cars on the front 18 inches of the 2.5 foot deep bottom shelf.) On the middle shelf, with a top shelf that also only comes out 18 inches from the back of the shelf, you would be able to see cars on the middle level shelf tracks between 12 and 18 inches from the back of the shelf (that is, on the front 6 inches of the 18 inch deep middle shelf), but would have trouble coupling or uncoupling any cars that were farther back on the middle shelf (due to limited finger room to manipulate uncoupling picks between top of cars and underside of the upper shelf). On the 18 inch deep top shelf, at 48 inches elevation, your seated view of couplers will be blocked by any scenery that is one inch high (unless you bend forward or stand up)...in which case you would be able to see and couple or uncouple cars all the way to the back of the shelf. So, track placement on the shelves will be limited to certain areas of each shelf.

    If you operate while standing (assuming eye level about 66 inches), and have your levels set at 39, 46, and 53 inches, and a 30 inch deep bottom shelf, 20 inch deep middle shelf, and 16 inch deep top shelf, then you will be able to see cars that are 18 inches or more from the back of the bottom shelf, 15 to 20 inches from the back of the middle shelf, and all the way to the back of the 16 inch deep top shelf.

    What plans do you have for accessing the dual tracks on the rising helix loops running at the back of the shelves for initial construction/installation, and subsequent routine maintenance and repairs? It may be difficult to work on the tracks, especially when they are getting closer to the underside of the next higher level. You may want to leave some extra space between the front edge of the helix loop subroadbed and the back edge of the middle and upper levels where the helix loop tracks' elevation is within 3 inches of the middle or upper level, so you have 9 or 10 inches of working space for your hands instead of trying to work in a 6 inch wide trough at the back of shelves with only 7 inch separation. Also, consider how you want to support the subroadbed of each helix loop: you'll want to be able to have enough space above the first and second loops of the helix/no-lix) so you can hold a soldering wand or gun on the outside of all 4 rails of either loop without running into the supports for the next higher loop of the helix (no-lix), which will only be 6 or 7 inches above, or the back edges of the middle and upper levels.
     
    Last edited: Jul 24, 2018
  8. ppuinn

    ppuinn Staff Member

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    Vince,
    There are (at least) two ways a no-lix in a 7x11 space can be designed to connect 3 levels:
    1. about 61 sq ft of level shelf with scenery and switching opportunities: 2.5x11 bottom level along one wall, 6 inch wide ramp continuously rising as it goes around the other 3 walls to connect to a 20 inch x11 foot middle level on the first wall (dual track runs with a 0% grade across the front or middle of the middle shelf and has crossovers that allow switching on both sides of the main), 6 inch wide dual track continuously climbs at 2% around the other 3 walls, and enters the 18 inch x 11foot upper level.
    2. about 80 sq ft of level shelf with scenery and switching opportunities: 2.5 ft deep shelf around the entire room (except for 3ft in front of doorway), dual track climbing at the back 6 inches of the doorway wall and short walls (and across the doorway), 20 inch deep middle level (with only about 6 inches of usable area at front of the shelf) with 0% grade around the entire room (except doorway) with dual track climbing at 2% at the back of the shelf, 18 inch deep upper level with 0% grade around entire room except doorway with no dual track at the back.
     

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