Here is M-T's reply as posted on the micro-trains group at Yahoo http://groups.yahoo.com/group/micro-trains/message/667 ======= Dear List Members: Over the past few days there has been a spirited internet discussion of Micro-Trains June New Release - Western Pacific Caboose #51220. The discussion has focused on two related issues: 1. The $33.00 retail price of the car: After careful consideration and discussion of the production issues involved, Micro-Trains management made a conscious, and calculated decision to go ahead with limited production of this model. Plainly speaking, the resulting retail price is a direct reflection of the complexity of the paint scheme, which required a large number of prints and masks. The caboose body style itself costs more to produce generally, compared to our other body styles. The philosophy behind the release decision is quite apart from the mechanics of the retail price issue itself. Some fundamental clarifications: To the suggestion that this car was released purely as a means to test market customer response to higher prices, there is no basis in truth. Nor is there any validity to the argument that the car is aimed primarily at the Collector's market. So then, why would Micro-Trains release a $33.00 Caboose? To answer this question one must consider how the potential demand for this (or any) complex paint scheme is estimated. Our market research, which is based in large part on direct customer input, internet polls, formal customer surveys taken at train shows, daily emails, and monitoring all of the major newsgroups, is the basis for the majority of car selection decisions. In addition, we receive a considerable number of requests for particular paint schemes and new body styles. These requests are usually accompanied by supporting prototype data, photos, etc. Many are for 'esoteric' paint schemes that Micro-Trains will never produce, simply because it would make no economic sense for us to do them. (Nonetheless, we will continue to produce short line schemes to satisfy the few who model them - usually with success.) In the case of the Western Pacific Caboose, we identified a car that, to our knowledge has not been produced by another manufacturer, and will likely never be produced by any manufacturer besides Micro-Trains. We do expect that those modeling WP will embrace the model on it's own merits, (even at a higher than normal price) but also realizing that no other manufacturer will probably ever produce it. It may simply never be available again at any price. Once again, the price was not artificially pumped-up, but was determined by actual and normal production costs. It was a calculated financial gamble on our part, and market acceptance and sales will ultimately decide if our decision was a good one. If our decision proves to be a poor one, we will certainly accept and learn from it, but it will surely have a bearing on future production decisions, possibly resulting in the cancellation of other difficult projects. After all, if the market is not receptive to the difficult cars that our customers repeatedly request, a change of strategy may be in order. 2. The prototypical accuracy of the car: This secondary issue is somewhat puzzling to us, as we believe that the model is a reasonable match to the prototype. Our model is based on photographs in Jim Eager's Western Pacific Color Guide (miscellaneous car end shots), and a photograph appearing in the 1994 Portola Railroad Museum Calendar. (Go to http://www.micro-trains.com/wpcab.jpg to view prototype) It appears to us that the variance on this car is within reasonable limits. Here again, market acceptance will have a bearing on whether our decision was prudent, or whether changes in strategy on future production decisions are warranted. To summarize, Micro-Trains Line Co. defends its decision to release this model. Our hope and expectation is that the WP caboose does, in fact, achieve market acceptance. In any case, our mission continues to be to produce high quality products that are desirable to the model railroading community. Respectfully, George Menzie Marketing Director Micro-Trains® Line Co. ======================= Added note: My previous research did not turn up the prototype photo of WP 602 listed above. Comparing that photo to the model does indeed show a fairly close resemblance. Based on that, I do plan to add one of the new cabooses to my WP N layout. ======================= eNjoy
After reading the reply, I can understand Micro-Trains price on this model. If you think about it, you can get 4 Kato Superliner cars for well under $20 a piece, and they have windows (with very cool black glazing around the outsides), TONS of printing, unique trucks and tons of superb details. So again, I can understand MT's price, but if Kato can do a (as I see it) more complex car that cheap, they should be able to. Now, this does not mean I don't buy MT cars, as a matter of fact, I have over 40 and I am very happy with all of them. Keep in mind that while they may have some high priced cars, MT has done a LOT for N scale, and will continue to I think, support them, as your supporting N scale and the USA. Just my 2 cents!
i guess glazing is far more difficult to put in the model than all those different paint and mask jobs!!!!!!!!!!!!! man i thought that laser pad printed cars would be fairly easy as it is all set up on the puter and not a single person touches an airbrush!!!
Catt Based on my 8 years at Con-Cor's Tucson AZ plant here is my analysis of the steps involved to paint/letter the WP caboose ===== Painting Paint body all silver Mask ends orange (requires one paint mask) Mask orange body stripe (requires one paint mask)(as an alternative, body stripe could be printed) ========= Printing Black side lettering (requires one plate)(one pass per side) White end safety stripes (requires one plate)(one pass per end) Orange side stripe (if not painted)(requires one plate and one pass per side) WP Herald -- this is where it gets tricky. See the WP herald here: http://www5.pair.com/rattenne/WP/images/wplgo_sm.gif ======== There are 3 colors: red, white and black. Each requires a separate plate and a separate pass per side for each color. There would probably be a fourth plate to print "Feather River Route" inside the circle. This would mean another plate and a pass for each side. ======== When multiple masking and printing passes are required, each "mistake" can be costly as it usually means scrapping the body. This has to be factored into the final cost. At Con-Cor we averaged the cost of each paint scheme so there was a uniform price for each body style. Micro-Trains has chosen to price their cars according to the time and labor involved in painting and lettering each particular scheme. To each his own. Having said all that, the MT undecorated caboose sells for $13.20. I do not feel that it cost MT $19.80 for paint/letter each WP caboose. eNjoy [ 06 June 2002, 14:13: Message edited by: dbn160 ]
gentlemen, If a caboose is going to cost $33. in NScale maybe thats the real reason why real RR's stopped running them: Jeff El Segundo and Malibu Railroad
While the paint schemes as seen on the ends of the car are slightly more complex, the price seems closer to what you might pay to a custom painter. Knowing that MT is using an automated process, I still cannot see their price. They should have gone about it more gradually. There'd be less "sticker shock." In the past, MT has done complex paint schemes on other body styles. Why are they not equally as high in price? What comes into mind are offerings as DeLuxe Innovations beautiful box cars. Such as their NP release. Correct body style. Properly weighted. Crisp printing and details. Brass etched stirrups and roof walks.... BoxcabE50 [ 06 June 2002, 16:50: Message edited by: BoxcabE50 ]
To me it sounded like "limited production" as in going ahead and running a few for those who keep e-mailing and otherwise requesting a run of WP cabeese. After going to a few layout tours here in CA, and seeing quite a few WP layouts, I can see where the majority of this run will end up. Now if this was a UP "safety" scheme, I bet the price would be lower due to the size of the run. All this is just my interpetation, so flame kindly.
Most likely you're close to the truth I dare say any caboose from any railroad other than the more well-known Class 1s would go cheaper. But, I expected prices like this from custom painters.
This is classic marketing by Micro-Trains. Do you realize how much free advertising these lists have given them with all the discussion about a $33.00 caboose? And, to ensure the discussion keeps going, Micro-Trains makes this post?! Now, don't you want to run to your hobby shop and look at caboose, to see why it costs so much? And once you get there, are you tempted to buy it just so you can tell everybody about it?! Well done, Micro-Trains. You guys just strengthened your grasp on the short hairs of N scalers!
A $33 caboose. This has sure prompted a lot of discussion. Perhaps the answer can be found on the back of every MT package. "Made exclusively in the USA" While other manufacturers make their products in China or Japan (in the case of Kato). No doubt about it that production outside the USA is generally cheaper. MT chooses to produce its fine cars in your backyard. So they could always choose to move production overseas to cut costs? Of course with the price of the C$ they could save $ just by moving north.
Lets see $33 US is around $48 Canadian, so what's the problem for Americans paying $33. $30 is the going rate in Canada of Red Caboose, MT's, etc anyway.
Granted, it is a high price to pay for a single peice of rolling stock and I would not want one, as I don't model WP, however, as I manage a model train store and deal with those who would or would not buy what is offered, I find that both of my customers who model Western Pacific, as well as all 4 of those who model Union Pacific have all ordered this (overpriced) caboose and only 3 have mentioned the high price it commands. Regardless of everything that many will say about this item, I do beleve that the market will determine weather it is a success or not and, if it is a sell out, as many previosly released (expensive) Microtrains items have been then we can expect to see more of them in the future and, If it turns into a white elephant, as many considerably lower priced items have become, then expect it to go the way of the Dodo bird. Yes, it may be, as some will say, "Overpriced" but, to many, it is a ready to run alterntuve to having to paint and decal for those who do not have the time or ability. Having been in this great hobby of ours since 1971 and having weathered the "Dark Ages" of N scale, when Scratchbuilding, Kitbashing, Pretending and passing off inaccurate equipment for prototype (eg: GP40 should pass for a GP38 etc.) was accepted as the norm, I continue to marvel at all the fantastic models that keep coming out, week by week and, almost day by day. In 1982, to even suggest that the all wheel drive, 5 pole motered, flywheel equipped and super detailed locomotives of today could even exist at anytime in the future would put one into a straightjacket and give him a one way ticket to the asylum, as, the purists, who then as now said "It Can't Be Done!!!". Yes, it may be overpriced, however, untill some lunitic passes a law telling me that I have to buy it, I can't complain. Now, back to my fleet of Kaslo Shops CPR wood cabooses (Undecorated resin kits less trucks, couplers and decals at only $39.95 (Canadian) which works out to about $25.50 US). Happy modeling . Cheers! Terry
Rule number 1: Never, never NEVER pay retail! For those interested, N Scale Supply in Colorado has this very same caboose for $26.40 Just go to N Scale Supply , and click on the new items, expecially in the Microtrains section. FWIW, Microtrains has always seemed to me to be a bit pricey, but they do put out some great cars. No, I'm not affiliated with N Scale Supply, but I've been a satisfied customer, so I feel obliged to pass the news along.
I tried to view the link to the yahoo micro-trains group, and found I had to join to view. Well, I belong to several yahoo lists, so I went ahead and tried to join and here it is a few days later and they DENIED my request! And I have always held a impartial, unflamed position on the lists I visited. That's the first time that has happened. Those micro-trains list members must be one heck of an elete group!
Rick, I don't know where you're getting $33 US dollars for $48 Canadian, but I'd sure like you to tell me. I have a lot of Canadian $ I'd like to exchange at that rate. Here in Kelowna B.C. the rate is $1.55 Canadian for each US buck. That puts that caboose up to $51.15 Canadian. WHEW!! I will agree that the MT cabooses are certainly detailed better than Atlas ones, so I buy MTL undecorated wooden cabooses and paint and decal them, but that's easy for me because I model the CNR. I wonder what MTL would charge if they ever produced a correct CNR caboose.
Mincro-Trains returned the list to an announcement list for the summer and my guess is during this time no new members can join. Its getting close to the show season and the people at MT travel more than they are at the office, its not easy to check the list for new members during this time. Being that I paint and scatchbuild models I feel the asking price of the caboose is well within reason and if I modeled WP I would more than likely buy more than one.
