Layout TOO big?

HEY,
Calm down there !!! Don't be so dam sensitive. Here on Trainboard,we poke fun at one another sometimes.Like Kiz said,a smile of any kind means its a joke. Lighten up alittle.No one is putting you down.Most of us wish we had the time,space,& money to even think of taking on a project that size.All we ask, keep the pictures coming. Your from Kans. I'm sure there's alot of "N" scalers in your area that would love to help you. But you've got to Chill out. You can have something great there,that we can see in all the mags. These 2 guys playing with you,are 2 of the best "N" as to offer. Again they were playing,joking,jesting ,
These are the guys the magizines go to for help.
I hope you understand the point I'm trying make.We're here to have fun & help one another.We're 1 big family.

 

If I had "unlimited" space, what design (and construction) considerations would I have? And what is there I would LIKE to do but have been prevented by space limitations?

I don't think I simply want "more of the same".

Really tight space limitations usually create problems of too-sharp curves, crowded track, etc. which of course can be avoided with more space.

Some space problems are solved, or at least alleviated, with "tricks" like double-deck construction, but those solutions can bring their own problems, such as too many people standing to stand/ work/ look in a same space as things are happening on two levels in the same space.

Even with space that DOESN'T require tight curves. we often have LENGTH limitations. We have to run trains that aren't as long as real trains, with towns and passing sidings only one train-length apart or evern less, and the overall distance of mainline isn't long enough to feel like any real distance (thought even with truly unlimited space, it would probably make some sense to condense run length and run time. We don't want to walk along running a train eight hours, or have a real 100 scale miles of track to lay, clean and maintain.)

So what is a reasonable train length? The beginning train set with loco, three cars and caboose could only represent an unusually light day on a branch line. My own small layout requires trains limited to 8 or 9 cars which looks a little better but still underwhelming. If I have a 20 foot square room for an N scale layout, I would ideally like to be able to run 20 or 24 car trains, and would feel like adequately represents a train.

Some N-track exhibitions put together world record setting trains with hundreds of cars, which is interesting and fun as a challenge or novelty, but how many people would want to do that all the time?

I want to run passenger trains long enough to represent the different kinds of cars found and some enroute switching cars in or out. I can realistically model some specific long-distance trains with 8 or 10 cars. I remember reading Santa Fe tried to limit passenger trains to about 17 cars and added a second section if more were needed. That seems like a reasonable MAXIMUM passenger train length for a model.

I also remember reading about some states limiting trains to 66 cars. I would like an average freight train to be somewhat longer than a passenger train, say twice as long. If the longest passenger train is 17 cars long, and an equivalent train of 40' freight cars would be 34 cars....times 2 is 68 cars. Getting close to that 66 car figure.

So let us take a figure of 66 freight-car lengths + locomotives as a length for longest "normal" train, ie. longest train accomodated by most of our passing sidings on single track. For a layout based on single track (probably appropriate for modeling large areas of Kansas), I would think an average distance of 2 to 3 train lengths between passing sidings/ towns would be good. Long enough to get that feel of single track going on and on, but not so long to fatigue an operate.

If this is point-to-point or loop-to-loop, a good starting point for layout design would be a terminal at one end, and two long passing sidings with intervening plain track out in the country before getting to the first junction or level-crossing/ interchange point with a few extra industries and some town detail. In other words, this would represent in condensed form the trip from one county seat to another county seat. 25 to 30 miles in real life, about 10 scale miles or 330 feet in an N scale layout.

That is a LOT of space for a point-to-point layout with a LITTLE running. Fun for two or three train operators and one or two terminal operators.

But if you are going to have only yourself and maybe only one other operator most of the time, you may want to have some kind of continuous loop operation. Double track would allow more "action". One or two trains could loop without much attention, while an operator concentrated on running one train "realistically."

When squeezing a layout into a 10x10 or 15x 15 room, I nearly always plan on track around the walls with operator inside, requiring some kind of duckunder or lift-gate, which is a drawback. Even with unlimited space, if your layout runs around the outside with operators/viewers on the inside, you need some way for people to get inside, duckunder, etc.

But with "unlimited" space, an island layout with people around the outside might not be such a bad idea. Could still be built with background so you don't see all the way across the miniature "world" but see instead a linear view.

Some of my ruminations.
(See some of my layout pictures and my actual and "dream" trackplans at http://www.railimages.com/gallery/kennethanthony

 

I will point out that it takes a lot more than a huge building and money to build an extraordinary model railroad. In no particular order, I would add:

a) time
b) patience
c) exceptional modeling skills
d) a lot of help from those with skills a person lacks (even the "masters" lack some skills)
e) interpersonal skills (see "d")
f) hard work
g) hard work
h) hard work

The kinds of people that I would look to for "d" aren't those with private planes who fly in from out of state. More than likely, it would be a few regular guys who would gladly donate a Saturday afternoon for some fun, beer and pizza (those three being largely redundant ).

[ 05. February 2005, 16:58: Message edited by: NorsemanJack ]

 

The N-scale railroad that I am currently in the process of constructing is in about a 44 foot by 20 foot warehouse. It is a lot of work to construct something this big by yourself, and if I were to start over again I might do some things differently.

My original plan was to make most of the layout with modular sections that would be N-TRAK compatible, so I could remove them to take to railroad events. Along the way I got "sidetracked" (pun intended). Most of the modules were not constructed to N-TRAK specifications, but to a modified form that we thought would work better for our group.

Some pictures of the modules can be seen here: My Photo Gallary

Although most of the lower level of the railroad is constructed by 2' x 4' modules, many of them are not easily removable for various reasons. Some of the modules would be difficult to get out because of their location, and all the modules are connected with continuous wires running through them. Signal wires and DCC wires were run under the layout and we didn't bother to place terminals at the end of each modular section. It could still be done, I guess, but not without a lot of work.

I think, in retrospect, it would have been better to make the whole project portable and just stick with the modular concept. It would have permitted more flexiblity with the coming and going of persons interested in the hobby, who could take their modules with them (or leave them) when they move or lose interest for one reason or another.

I could probably write a book about what to do and not to do, but I certainly don't have all the answers yet. I'm still learning. I don't know how large the modeling population is in your area (my area is very rural), but it will not be easy to find and keep the kind of help that you will need to run such a large railroad no matter how large the population may be.

The maintainence on the layout can be a huge distraction from the operating fun that you now envision. No one builds a layout just for the purpose of maintaining and cleaning it, but that is where a lot of your time will be spent!

Who will have access to the layout? Is it yours or is it going to be open to others? When others have keys, how do you provide security? Things will disappear and who is to blame? Who pays the insurance and who pays the utilities? If the railroad is all yours; you call the shots! If others are helping and providing things for the layout, then they can be expected to want something in return. How much control are you willing to give up?

I love the hobby of model railroading, but building a large layout with the help of your friends is about like taking on a home construction project with a troubled marriage. Individuals have their own ideas about how things should be done and agreement is not always going to be easy. It isn't going to be a smooth undertaking, and don't be surprised if relationships that you counted on to begin with eventually terminate. Don't despair. If your resolve is still to build a layout it can be done.

Look at the bright side of things--even if your plans change somewhere down the line, there is always going to be a swap meet, eBay, or an estate sale sometime in your future.

Work is still progressing on my layout, but at a very slow pace. I figured that it would be something to do when I retire, and that is still my plan. Someone else said it took twenty people a year to build a large layout. I guess that means if I build it myself it will take me twenty years.

I've rambled on long enough.... Send me some private messages if you are interested in hearing more without everyone in the world looking in.

Good luck!


(My Gosh! Did I really write all of this post? I think I need a hobby!)

[ 05. February 2005, 19:51: Message edited by: upguy ]

 

We got so worked up over your layout space. It really is awesome. We are teasing a little but were all jealous.

Frisco,
You haven't really said much about the kind of layout you plan to do. It is hard for us to give advice based solely on the fact that your layout has no limitations right now. For all we know you could knock holes through walls and create a layout that is as big as that school building. I don't think i've drawn track plans like that since I was about ten years old.

Ok, you need a train room for your layout. Compare the classrooms to the size of your old layout. I bet the classrooms are perfect for having a layout in.

1. you will need a train room.
2. If you plan on having people over to run with you you'll need a lounge type area with a couch and some chairs for people to hang out in. you could build a viewing loft area where people hang out and just relax and watch the trains roll.
3. If you plan on having CTC type controll or somekind of dispatcher you may want a small separate room for the dispatcher.
4. You need a work space for building models.
a. workbench
b. painting booth
c. computer table
d. lots of staorage for parts and models

I would think you want to make sure your layout room is very comfortable and has finished walls and cieling. heating/AC is important too. A bathroom nearby is handy.

Lighting is important. Most people use flourescent lighting. I personally hate frlourescents because I work under them all day and they do not produce really sharp light. you cielings are big enoug you could use flood lights. There are also those flourescent light bulbs that fit into standard light bulb fixtures. They make these bulbs in a full spectrum, so that the colors in your models will show up properly.

People have mentioned doing modular units for your layout. Maybe build it in 2x6 panels. This way if you later decide you need to move to the gym you can always take it apart and move it.

It would be tempting to build a G scale layout complete with live plants in the space you have. Or even go with O scale. Most of us do N scale because of space limitations.

[ 05. February 2005, 20:21: Message edited by: traingeekboy ]

 

That is awesome

That looks like enough space for some kind of commercial operation.

You could open up the University of Model Railroading. Get a government grant and hand out MRR degree's.

How about a MRR Bed and Breakfast setup. People spend the weekend and work on the layout while they are there. As things progress the rooms will be full as weekend operations become legendary.!!!!!!

Are you close to some adult(over 45) condo's. You may find some older retired guys who might just jump at the chance to take up a hobby, and help you out.

I know my YHR is all I can handle and then some on my own.

Man, I think you could really capitalize something with that space.

 

Dale,

You need to hook up with a couple of Frisco fanatics here in Topeka.

If I had ownership of a school building, I would rent out space to organizations.

As far as building a layout, I would start small, in phases. That's what I am doing. For years I contemplated a large layout. I've built so much framework, it became exasperating. I finally committed to a small layout, 14 X 3. This is phase one. After I get the track electrified and have trains running, and some scenery in place, I will move on to phase two which will be a 6' X 4' extension with a helix. Then, phase three will be the 14' X 18" upper level. This way, I hope I won't get burned out, and if I do, I'll have phase one completed to the point where I can enjoy running my trains. That's my plan and I'm sticking to it.
Good luck with whatever you decide to do.

 

Dale,

Sorry, no offense was ment by it I assure you. It was just a quick FUN reply was all without truly reading all the posts up to that point.



For a real thought, maybe break up the area by doing layouts that match real railroads in true scale. Another thought is to have each layout as a point in time to match a real railroad in true scale as a timeline.

Both of these would add great educational stories for all to enjoy.

 

Dale:

My apologies. (Sorry I did not see your objection sooner.) I was just musing about large layouts I have know about in the past. I was not making fun of your situation. Apologies, again, for my error.

 

I just had another thought, you could go N-Trak and build modules. Then you could invite modular clubs from around the country to set up and have a show!

 

To go along with my apology to Dale...I repeat my apology.

Further, the Titan Missle silo layout is not a joke. There is someone in Montana who bought a surplus missle silo for a train layout. I think that the space was so cavernous that the layout was never built. One of the problems was that it was difficult, if not impossible, to air condition or heat the space.

My apologies again for what must have seemed to be a flippant remark.

[ 06. February 2005, 02:29: Message edited by: sapacif ]

 

On his website there is a link to another school for sale. 50k buys almost 2 acres and 20,000 square feet. Yep, if I start up the next Kato, I'll have to locate it in Kansas. Land, housing, and labor are all cheap!

 

Frisco,
I think you need to sit down & decide what road or area you wish to model,maybe time frame as well.
Seeing as this will be a huge undertaking,you will need some help.Maybe place an ad in the local paper for some like minded people that wish to model the same road/area/time frame/scale or on the Frisco web site.
Do you intend to work on this full time or hire someone to do main construction?(base boards,frame work,wiring etc etc)
Again will the whole building be for layout or part there of?
Also why not ask one of the professional layout builders for their opinion,or one of the "big" layout clubs for help.
N trak could be an advantage,you could hold a national N trak meet every year or two & you would have a massive experience base to talk to during these "meets".
Either way you have some big decisions to make & I wish you luck.

 

frisco,
you've got one incredible place to build an incredible layout.
but i can see it is very daunting to say the least.
while i would love to have so much space to make THE layout...
i know that i personally would never be able to accomplish it on my own.
i agree with the other posters...it would be a momentous undertaking that would require help from like minded modelers.
other suggestions are equally valid.
maybe start small, in one area, and rent the other areas...
use part for n-scale, and another for HO...
n-trak...
mentioning n-trak...
does HO have anything similar?
maybe the local HO'ers could make a modular layout?
or you could have a myriad of layouts...n, ho, o, g...
well, there are too many suggestions by the other forumites for me to list all of them....but each are good.
perhaps it will all boil down to some difficult Q & A's to see what you feel would be the best thing.
i do wish you luck though.
please post any updates and progress.
if i was in you "neck of the woods", i would relish the opportunity to help out.
but, for now, i'm gonna have to be satisfied with the opportunity to at least watch from the sidelines

 

Ok, I had to put htat up to see the true glory of your building...I would love to have that build just as my HOUSE to live in!!! It really is PERFECT!

My uncle just built a 40X60 garage...and it feels huge, your gym is truely gargantum.
I personally would not use it for a permanant layout. I would knock a large garage door in one end, and use it as a shop for automobiles/restorations. But that is my other interest, your's may be different.

Model railroad wise, you could keep the gym empty. This way, you could do large presentations and house visits, conventins, and even small train shows in that large space.

I would use the Music room for a machine/tool shop. Not the Gym. Why? You want more doors/looks between your heavy tools and the outside as possible. If you had a show or a convention, you would suddenly have to clean out that huge space, making your other spaces cramped.

I might use one room as a workshop. Notice, this is different from the machine shop. The machine shop would have those big things, though you would probably end up spending more time in it on projects. As such, the office might be best for a workshop. Seeing how it is an office, I am gussing there is an opening in that wall. You could put glass in it, and visitors could see inside your workshop. At the same time, might be best to keep it closed, so that less can get broken into.

I would leave the kitchen there. Its really nice to have a kitchen....

Layout wise, I would keep it small. At most two classrooms with the divider partially removed (but not completely because I am certain some of those walls are load bearing).

I would use one room for housing (X)-trak Modules where X is any scale. Basic rack style, allowing the modules to be put on shelves that are about 3-4 feet above each other. I would assemble those modules in the Gym, if it was kept entirely open.

Notice you still have a lot of space left. One might be good to be turned into a shelved location for models, books, videos, As a storage room. Never a bad Idea, storage. free space is a wonderful thing, too...

This still leaves a lot of room open. You might want to find out how each individual room has heat/AC. hopefully, it is individual room, as then you can limit your scope of heating problems. if it is all one system, you can always use a space heater, but you must keep those things monitored.

If you do everything this way, you have your gym completely open. This means you can have displays, (X) trak meets, swap meets, and a number of different activities in that room. Your community may have events that need space every once in a while, and if that space looks decent, you can rent it out on a schedule to those events, while keeping greater control over your building; all of your stuff will be behind lock and key in the other rooms, a huge benefit in controlling a large crowd.

Now think about one other thing, Murphy's law: If you have 100 trains running at one time, through the entire building, with one guy watching them all, imagine the headaches that could ensue...reason why it might be best to keep the layout to a smaller size, and follow Colonel's ideas on how to expand it as necessary.

I would not run trains down the center hall, or put stuff there, as that is mostly for fire/safety/theft protection concerns.

I love your building; If I had the 50k, I would be buying the other one and moving to Kansas...what are the school systems and prospests for a Geoscience teacher like there?!!!

You could put a bedroom in, and then,you would never need to level school!!!!!

(School's In Forever!!!)

 

The 50K is not too much of an issue. It is the $400K+ to do it up right that may be a problem. Also, it is in Kansas. Although I don't particularly care for the frantic activities of NYC (having lived in it for 52 years), I don't know if I could adjust to rural.

 

My personal druthers:

I would make the gym, music room, and office my house (the gym itself would make a 3-story house easily), then the rest of it the train museum - the town might even help out if they knew it would be a money maker (if you wnated to go that route).