'Z' scale kits are notably expensive viz. other modelling scales. This is especially noticeable with respect to photochemically etched metal structural frets. Here, defying all logic, as well as production cost inputs, we are charged five times as much , for an etched fret that is one tenth the size of one from, say 'HO/OO' , or the like. Often we are told that is because of the small size of the demand for a 'Z' scale fret, which is even more ludicrous for every model railroad fret , regardless of scale, is a limited run product. Only in industry areas outside of scale train model making, are long run batch machines operating to eliminate some of the manual labor invoved per unit of output. Mass marketted trains(toy?) may be able to do so for some parts, but the hobby train sector doesn't lend itself to such production techniques. Regrettably, I can't do much about that other than to suggest that a club, or group of modellers having a common industrial interest (steel, flour milling, power houses, coal mine tipples/breakers, meat packing , etc.), or focus on some particular artifacts such as steel truss/cantilever/bascule or other bridges get together, and decide what yanks their chains... and then contact firms that are chemically photoetchers for the trade. That is; that do etching as vendors for others, as opposed to those doing it as part of the production process of some other product. Those familiar with the making of model train parts are obviously more likely to be of assistance, and are less likely to assume knowledge not present in your group. The latter, can be as important a quality in this type of transaction as any other factor, as I have learned the hard way over the years. Regardless, of whether the above matter is helpful to anyone here, let me get to an area that I believe can be of help. War gamers, and other military modeller types have access to 1:285 (6mm) and 10mm scale structures that are worth consideration. Made out of cast resin or dental stone for the most part ( as there are also ceramic <molded fire clay> structures about), they include a number of large structures and structural complexes , utilizable in 'Z' scale. Take a look, and don't bother about the kit titles , "Red October Tractor Factory", and Soviet apartment blocks may not have crossed your radar, nor have Arab oil depots, and Polish/Russian grain elevators but ... they are good enough to get by as North American structures and if you are superdetailing the kits you are presently using, then you won't have to anything differently. You will have to do more, if you buy some large aggregation of buildings simply because they are larger sized units. Regardless, take a look, and especially note the prices. Check out your local dealer in these goods, or find online traders. I don't think any have all that is offered, although you should check others, here is one trader that has sold goods to myself and others that I know is honest. For example see: < > There are plenty of other dealers, and you probably should get the catalogs of kit makers that you like. JR's # (888) 959-6600 Good-Luck, PJB
Wow... I don't even know how to start it. Obviously you have no idea about the cost involved. A kit doesn't happen by magic. Research, development, manufacturing of components test run(s), writing and drawing instructions, packaging, marketing, adverising... There are simple ways to save on those unjustly expensive kits, don't buy them. Build your own structures from scratch, then you'll quickly realize, kits are not as expensive as you think. Another idea, develop the "miracle kit", offer them for the fraction of the price of competitive products, let those gready kit makers learn how to run a truely profitable Z-scale kit business. One more note. Crappy N and HO scale kits are only "relatively" cheaper than Z, good kits are very expensive... Lajos :0)
Lajos, I was going to respond to this post but I haven't got the background you do in this area. Thanks for adding the accurate information. John Ztrains: Z Scale (1:220) Model Train Layouts
Greetings pjb, Could you very kindly send a link to some kits that you have produced yourself? This would be the most accurate way for myself to understand where you are coming from. On the other hand I have used CorelDraw and designed kits. Even before the kit is cut from the material there are fractions of inches to be calculated for every doorway, corner, roof height, wagon wheel size (oy! tiny!), walkway, window frames... it matters not what scale except that Z scale does not have 50 different styles of the same building so that we can copy the measurements. We have to figure it out, new frontier, paving new paths. Take your calculator and tell me exactly the size of a wagon wheel. We've cut them already, too late. But the TIME, precious time involved for each and every step. The bricks are almost invisible to the eye, but we figure it out and make 'em. Time is money but thank goodness most Z scalers don't ask for the true value of the time they put into these pieces or we would have to do without. It costs the modeler money, yes, but it is a labor of love from the designer for the scale. Very few hobby shops have Z scale kits in their stores but I see HO kits gathering dust there. Need one? I'll get you a bargain from the shop owner. However, there are enough of us who produce some Z scale structures and kits to stave off a total drought in the market. If it so simple to shrink from HO to Z then why aren't those mfgr's out there producing kitys for us Z scalers? Try building one. Then try to design one of your own. Then try to turn it into kits... WITH instructions that you wrote, easy enough for the beginner. Then , and only then, will I take your criticism seriously. For my fellow modelers, let this one go, its not worth arguing about. The guy just doesn't get it. Karin
I guess I will through in my two cents. Frankly, low cost kits are not a good option for Z scale. I have been studying the Z market for a very long time. By reading recent posts, you would think Z is over priced. I can't help but think that there is a push to make Z a bargain basement scale with cheap products. I say cheap and not economical, there is a big difference. But, what I don't hear in these posts is what you get for the price. That is extreme quality and attention to detail. From the kits to the cars and locomotives, Z is many respects offers much better products and quality that can be found in other scales. Let's face it, you just don't have a bad running Z loco in Z. Plus the details on many of our injection products are usually only reserved for brass run. But I digress and will focus on kits. Kit and accessories manufacturers have it very difficult in Z. Many are only Z specific and not cross scale which means they are catering to a very limited pool. Karin and Lajos are right on. Kits are not just about material costs. Manufacturers time is a big consideration. Research, time, marketing, and packaging all add to the costs. Why should manufacturers give this away? Personally, I stand behind every Z manufacturer. These people are struggling to offer good products to a scale that often does not reciprocate in support. Too often, I have seen threads about new product announcements ruined by the hint of pricing concerns. I have seen new and excited product lines never even given a chance because of a few who don't get it. Frankly, I have a list of failed Z scale companies that makes me sad for the lost potential. Here are my challenges to manufacturers. DO NOT become a charity. It does not benefit the scale to give it away. All this does is cause unrealistic pricing expectations for other manufacturers. Keep up the quality and DO NOT cut the corners. Z is about quality, and detail. That is what attracted us to the scale and this is where the scale will grow. Next, price accordingly. You will not get rich making and offering Z scale products. I am a prime example of this. Ztrack Magazine is the world's third largest Z scale company. We are only behind Marklin and Micro-Trains is revenue. But, I still work a 'real' job to support the family. So price accordingly. You need to cover your costs and make a few dollars. The Z community needs you. We don't want to see any manufacturer leave because they can't make a small profit. I also have a challenge for the Z community. Support your manufacturers. At one time, any new Z product was a gift. We were so hungry that any product that came on the market was devoured. Today, with the wealth of new products for Z, I believe many of us are taking for granted our manufacturers. Support them. Let them know you are behind them. This is especially important in today's economy where money is tight. A few words of encouragement can go a long way. Rob Kluz
I agree with Rob, try and support what you can if you want more. So many people ask for this or that, but in the process, if we don't support them then they will leave the market. However, saying that, I would also advice not to go over your means. I tend to wait and then buy in bunches when my money is saved and ready. Recently I got myself the MT water tower, AJ, slcik, some more track, and a couple Z thek controllers. I know again shortly, I'll have some more comming in and I'm eyeballing what else to get. This may sound funny but I tend to look more at what I want for the layout than what is cheapest. Having a wide variety of experience with kits, I'll just say a good kit is worth every stinking penny! Expense is relative. This is a hobby. So it is truely up to you. I have scratch built some structures and I'll never get rid of them even if the quality is not perfect. There is tremendous satisfaction from building your own stuff. If price is the factor buy some styrene or wood and give your own a shot. After doing my own, you can appreciate how nice a well done kit truely is.
Gadzooks, Where to begin. Keeping this short I will have to say I'm not quite sure what pjb is getting at. Looking through a Walthers catalogue I see many HO kits more expensive than the comparable Z kit. I suppose what pjb is missing is that kit making in Z is more a labor of love than a proposition to make a living wage. Our kit makers like Lajos, Karin, Mudthuggin, Robert Ray, and others are not pulling in more money than they can deal with. They do their work for the good of the scale, and I'm glad they do. Z scale has maybe 3300 participants. That is why you only see 2 pages in the Walther catalogue. At this moment we don't seem worth the effort for the big companies. But I feel the quote from the movie, "if they build it we will come", has meaning. Z scale growth in the last ten years has been tremendous and our kit makers are one of the main reasons. If the big companies embrace Z scale then I feel Z will really take off. Cheers, Jim CCRR
The biggest problem with Z is the size of the customer base. It's tiny compared to other scales. That makes it impossible for someone to invest in the tooling of something like a structure or scenic injection molded. When you do that kind of tooling you need to sell thousands of units, not hundreds which is more like the size of the demand for stuff in this scale. Freight cars aside, the cottage industry will be the provider of structures and the like for the time being. Sure you see stuff made in Japan and Europe, but I would argue those markets are bigger than the US Market is right now...or at least their appetite to buy is bigger. We thrash around a lot on the boards about wanting this or wanting that, but when it comes to plunking down cash for our wants or needs, it doesn't happen. Trust me on that one. I doubt we will ever see something like Pro Z for the US Market, the demand isn't there and regional interests are all over the board and we are a fickle bunch. Pro Z reflects what the vast majority of what Japan sees on a daily basis, commuter trains. That works in that sort of product concept...we see SD-90's lashed up end to end pulling hundred car trains and that's what we model...that won't work in a Pro Z product. Cost and return will always drive product development, and until the Z market approaches the size of N, we will continue to be a craftsman scale. And on the odd chance that someone does tool up for an American Proto structure, be ready to empty your wallet. Joe MTL
Rob and Jim, Very well thought out responses you have shared. You all, including my wife Karin, (both an avid lover of Z scale, ARR, and kit designing) have expressed very eloquently some very convincing arguments in defense of kit costs, etc. We are not picking on you PJB, but I think you will feel the heat in the kitchen if you bring up a subject which you really don't fully understand thoroughly and pass judgement before you have the big picture. I've been involved in Z scale for just over four years now and I can attest to the fact that everyone who enters the realm of Z scale has a tremendous learning curve in front of them before they really feel like main stream Z scalers. I know these folks intimately, (especially my wife)......woo woo..........and the dedication, pashion, and even sacrifice they make to do their best to promote Z scale is wonderful to see and makes me feel proud to be a part of this great commnity. We Z scalers are really family in many respects. We like each other, we love our subject material, we argue and disagree from time to time, and we've even been known to make off the wall comments from time to time,(who me?) but we're fiercely loyal to one another too. The zeal we have is because for us all, we thoroughly enjoy this scale and we want nothing more than to see everyone involved to share the fun, excitement and joy that we all experience with this fantastic scale. Size does matter and we get so much for our space and dollar spent. Z does offer many challenges, since it is the new kid on the block still, (even though a little pip squeak is now rearing its head a bit in the form of T scale........yes, there is smaller than Z scale. I'd compare Z today as to where N scale was in about the late seventies, early eighties. If we were playing ball, I'd say we are approaching 1st base off a hard hit to right field. We're just getting up speed so don't stand in the base line unless you want to eat cleats..... John Paul said it so well years ago......"I have just begun to fight" PJB, you will find that all if not most Z scalers will fiercely defend fellow Z scalers for the simple reason that we are few, and we are just beginning to make waves. If you don't believe that, just visit train shows and if you are lucky enought to find some Z scalers at the show, get up close and personal and feel the pashion. Going back a moment to kits and the builders......I know a bunch of them and since my wife and I are involved also, I speak from first hand experience. You have absolutely no idea of the time, energy, and devotion we kit builders put into our creations. Rob mentioned pricing, not too much, but certainly not a give away either. And Rob is right, we don't quit our day jobs thinking we are going to turn green as we roll in our loot from making any sort of Z product. We'll never get rich from Z, though we certainly wouldn't object a bit now would we, Robert, Reynard, Jim, Michael, Karin and many many others? Jim O'Connel and myself make trees for ourselves and we also sell them, and I make a line of Hydrocal tunnel portals, bridge abutments, and such, and there are times I think...."why am I spending so much time on this for so little return?" And then the pashion takes over again and we justify our efforts by realizing that we are sharing and giving to our Z family members something from the heart. Enough rambling, but I want you to know PJB that we are a very tight knit group and together we stand, sit, stoop, squint and fumble........all for the love of our scale. Loren, one of the few, the proud, the going blind, but loving it......... )
I for one am glad that it is considered expensive and like the fact that there is not so much cheap stuff to buy right off the shelf. So far I have all I need for my own little empire and for scratch building and so on. And with the latest MTL GP35 and GP9 I am pretty happy so far. And I like that there is not to many people that model in Z-Scale so that it stays rear and mystic and the few people that is in Z-Scale become so familiar with each other and friends across the borders who. It's almost like when you where kids, as long as you have one interest in common you are instantly friends no matter what. ME: I model trains as a hobby YOU: Okay that's nice, se you later some day (weirdo) ME: It is in a small scale called Z-Scale YOU: Ohh,,, ME TO so I se you later after work today okay? LoL
Well said Karin.I cut in all scales and scaling for Z is the hardest by far. Scaling from Ho to N is not to hard or O to Ho but changes have to be made. Material sizes do not scale at 54.4 % for HO to N and for sure not the 72.72% for N to Z. the N to Z is in most cases easier to start new as you have to change so many things and it does take time and test cuts and builds. Then there is always the one thing you forgot to change. So you do another test build. I do Z because I like the people in Z and the challenge for doing it. Like my wagons in Z was told by another laser kit manufacturer you could not do one in N scale so I did them in Z just to see if I could. Have done one building in T scale as has Robert Ray don't know were that will go but had to try. Merry Christmas and have a great New Year. rich
There is already a cheap solution. Even when I personally dont like. And is used a lot by german Z guys, with marvellous result. It's cardboard. http://www.kartonmodell-forum.org/forum/thread.php?postid=19026 And you can even take all the files at your fingers and scale down from H0 or N or.... But if you have 2 pence spare, you can buy from a big one with hudge choice.... http://www.gleimo.de/Katalog/GleiMo-Katalog 2009.pdf
Well PJB, WE (that's the Z community) are always on the look for other sources. The military link you reference and some other do provide only a part or piece from one of their kits that work for most of us. Reason, they are 1:285, 1:250 or 1:200 scale and quite noticeably different sized and, most really do not look the way each of us would like for our particular theme or era. We do look for everything possible and do ask manufacturers to make some things As others have posted, we do try and support theor efforts by buying them out as a reward but as others have posted, the market can be small and they may not sell as many as thought. Still, we appreciate their efforts. I work in manufacturing and others here do too. As Joe says, injection moulding is nearly out of the question as 2-5 or more dies are required. Castings can certainly be cheaper but many of us can clearly see the detail differences. Some accept it because that is all we can get of that, some can super detail it out. Others wait for that magical injection molded version There is an ever growing availability of stuff in Z but the US market is as stated a very different market from Europe and Asia. As for kits and costs, I truly see the time and effort to put a kit together. R&D, design, trial fits, decals (there is a real costly part of it - see how much an Alps printer costs and the magical white cartridges long out of production) plus the instructions, packaging. But Z is what we like, as can be seen by the much faster growing sales over others. .
Try a Kitbash I'm thinking one way to make Z scale structures is to take some N structures & cut them down to size. I'm looking at the Bachmann factory as an example. For a N scale business, it seems too small and silly. Cut it down to Z scale, it doesn't look so bad. Needs a new office area with smaller doors. I don't think we want Z scale to have the cookie cutter kits like N scale that seem to reappear every so often under new labels. Some of these kits go back to the 70's or earlier. The only thing Bachmann has changed in 30 years is the color of the box these cheap items come in.
I am having trouble finding an example of this. I checked prices from a couple of etched brass kit manufacturers. I will use Miller Engineering's Micro Structures as an example (just because they offer the same kits in Z, N, and HO. (All prices msrp rounded up) Gulf Station:Z $33, N $43, HO $90 The Victoria (Victorian House): Z $36, N $48, HO $129 Diner: Z $30, N $40, HO $80 Crestline Theater: Z $30, N $42 I also checked Micron Arts and Traincat and found the same to be true. Micron Art: Stakebed truck: Z$18, N $20, HO $35 Water Tower: Z $24, N $41 I failed to find one brass manufacturer that charged MORE for Z than for their larger scales. I'm not saying that they don't exist, but I haven't found them. Dan S.
Let's see here .... Let's take one common item in my catalog. I offer the Tankcar Loading platforms in Z, N and HO scale. HO is $44.95, N is $17.95 and Z is $17.95. I think you will see that all of my latest Z offering are the same as N, or usually cheaper. As an etched brass manufacturer, I am actually offended by your statements about etched brass manufacturers in general without substantiation. :tb-mad: Myself, and most other etched brass manufacturers are striving to add reasonably priced products for Z'ers to their catalogs and do so striking a balance between profitability and serving the needs of modelers. Specially in tough times as these. What you might not understand is the time involved for the engineering and artwork required to bring an item to market. My latest, the Woodchip Loader, has around 330 hours in research, engineering, artwork generation, etching, building the prototype, photographing, writing instructions, etc. Z-Scale also requires thinner metal. Typically .005 instead of .010 and is more expensive in that sheet size is smaller so yields are lower. Do you really expect that time and expense to be free?? Every day I get at least one email from a Z-Scaler asking when I am going to do more in Z. I really want to accommodate every request, until I see posts like yours.
