Improving pickups on N Scale Steam

I didn't really wish to double post this, but there has been no sign of life on the N Scale Steam Forum, so thought I would have a go here.

I have done a search without much success, but I am interested in improving pickups on several of my steam locos, I have several Rivarossi locos (pickup one side of the loco, return on the opposite side of the tender, plus some Life-Like Berkshires, Y3's that don't appear to have tender pickups. Has this subject been covered here at all by any chance.

I vaguely remember reading in (I think) an N Scale Magazine about using coupler coil springs for pickup (I think the article related to the Atlas Y? Articulated). Are items such as Tomar pickups of any use in N scale? Any assistance will be greatly appreciated.

Yours in Model Railroading
Ted (Teditor) Freeman.:tb-biggrin:

 

For many older steamers, upgrading to a tender with all wheel pickup is an easy route (I'm doing this with a MP Pacific).

Bachmann offers separately 3 tenders with excellent pickup:

- a USRA medium tender
- a USRA long tender
- a shorter tender (I don't know the proto).

BTW, the Lifelike Y3 does have tender pickup, except the designers did not connect the "juice" to the loco! (it is used to power the tender light). If you are handy you can tie the tender pickup to the loco for better pickup.

Mark

 

The Y3's (at least the newest runs) have excellent tender pickup - in fact, I wish all the N scale steamers would adopt this design.

The LL Berks also have tender pickup. Unfortunately, in the very first run (#'s 717 and 738) the tender pickup wasn't very good and was limited to the rear tender truck (or was it the front only - can't remember now; I replaced mine with newer tenders which are no longer available). The newer runs (740, 765, 776 and 779) had pickup from both sets of trucks, but it is still not exceptionally reliable because instead of using the Kato/Walthers Y3 system of having copper cups that the wheels roll in to provide electrical pickup, the Berk system uses a curved wiper that contacts an inner groove in the wheel set.

So here's what I have done over the years to improve the Berk's tender pickup.

First, make sure the copper pickup strips inside the tender are absolutely flat. If you have one of the early tenders, you should consider attaching flexible 30-gauge wires to the front truck and soldering the wires to the copper pickup strips for the rear truck to improve pickup.

Second, add weight to the tender so that the truck wipers push up more on the inside copper strips and the wipers themselves push down more on the wheels to better transfer electrical power.

Third, take the tender trucks apart, and using a wire brush in a Dremel on slowest speed, wire brush clean each wheel tread, each inside groove on the wheels where the wipers contact the wheels, the curved surfaces of the wipers that contact the wheels, and the tip of the wiper that contacts the copper strip.

Another problem with the LL Berk's electrical pickup comes in the way the drawbar works. The drawbar has two "springy" wires that wipe between two copper tabs on the underside front of the tender; these wires then extend over the front hole in the drawbar, which then goes over a post on the engine. The wires rub against the post, thus (in theory) transferring power from tender to engine. To improve this system, I bend the rear wires outward (gently) to put more "wiper" pressure on at the tender end and bend the front wires (gently) inward to put more pressure on the post. I also take my handy wire brush and use it to clean/polish the post. Finally, in some cases I have taken a soldering iron and put a very thin coat of solder over the inside of the copper tabs that the drawbar wires wipe against - the solder seems to help conductivity. I also use a hobby knife to scrape the wires so they are bright and shiny, as opposed to blackened.

Probably the best thing to do with the Berk would be to go to an all hard-wired pickup system - that is, solder flexible 30 gauge wire to the tips of the truck wipers, instead of relying on the copper strip contact method, and then run 30-gauge wire from the tender directly to the engine. I don't do this because I like being able to detach the tender from the engine; but I'm getting close to trying this method with #738, which has been a perennial PITA on the electrical pickup front.

Hope this helps.

John C.

 

I have similar issues with a Concor GS4 Daylighter. Would simply soldering a wire dirrectly to the truck contacts take care of the stop/reset(DCC) issues with this loco? All the electrical pick up on this loco is through both tender trucks.

Is the problem elsewhere in the loco?

As much as I would love to have the Kato loco this is what I have and would like to get it to run reliably.

 

Hi John,

I believe I you can solve some of the pickup problems with your GS-4 by fashioning strips of copper to sit between the wheels and the sideframes (much like that already used on the Kato unit). You should be able to grab a small sheet from Busy-Bee the next time you're there, or we can look in one of the electrical shops here in Riverside or at Home Depot (something thin enough for an X-acto blade to cut through). I plan on doing the same for the Model Power steamers I recently purchased, as I've learned they don't have the greatest contact points.

I'll make you a deal - you install DCC (and sound) on my steamers, and I'll make the contacts for the tenders.

 

Thanks everyone for your assistance, I think going hard wire connections on the Berkshire and Y3 are probably the way, Kato Mike tender trucks if available would be a good start for some of the Rivarossi locos as a guess.

Teditor

 

Hi Teditor,

Sorry we didn't respond sooner in the Steamers Group. Unfortunately the groups don't see as much activity as the main forum as no group notifications are shown on the main page. Generally I try to encourage as much activity in the group as possible with product updates and discussion, as well as individual member projects and that fun chit chat stuff. Anything regarding specific trouble shooting however, I think is still best suited for the main forum as it will get much wider recognition, as you can see by the response you got once posted here.

Good luck with the pick up improvements! Keep us posted. :thumbs_up:

-Mark

 

Thanks Mark, I didn't mean anything derogatory in regards to the Steam Forum, and as you say, it is a bit in the background, if I can assist in helping keep it enthused, I will most certainly try.

It may seem strange that I have an interest in getting old Rivarossi steam working, but I find them quite reliable and forgiving for exhibition work, they just need to be brought up to speed in the pickup department, although the wheels and valve gear are coarse by today's standards, its amazing what a bit of Grimey Black and dry brushing can do.

Teditor.

 

Richmond Controls offers a variety of wiper sets for different steamers suffering from pickup problems.

 

I believe this is what you are trying to accomplish.





It works, not as well as the Kato or Bachmann system, but it does work. Some things to consider....

#1: Don't use brass, use Phosphorbronze sheet. It is available from any shop who has a K+S Metal Center.
#2: As Russ mentioned, you will need to replace the wheelsets with those from Kato or Bachmann trucks. The stock axles will just create a short circuit.
#3: You have to get the holes spaced perfect, if not you induce a lot of extra drag and not all the wheels will contact the rail at the same time.

Again, the Bachmann/Kato needle point method is much better but also much harder to replicate. I tried a few times before giving up and drilling holes. The truck frames must be designed for the extra thickness of the pickup plate and the dimples for the axle points must be just right.

The trucks shown above are Bachmann from the vanderbuilt tender that came with the old 2-8-2. The only reason I went to the trouble on these was the truck was a pretty much spot on match for the trucks I needed. Rivarossi made a great copy of a B&O vanderbuilt tender but stuck completely wrong existing trucks from the Berkshire tender under it. At the time, the only 6 wheel tender trucks with needle point pickup were the one on the Walthers Y-3 and they were only available by purchasing a $150 loco. Now Bachmann has the VC-16 vanderbuilt with 6 wheel trucks and Kato offeres the GS-4 tender trucks as parts. Next time I would probably just use trucks from one of those offerings instead of the process shown above. I only did one truck as it took me about a week to get that one where I felt it was right. The rear truck on the loco this was done for has no pickup. It wasn't worth the effort.

 

That's what I was thinking, yes. However, it looks to be some careful crafting involved as you stated, so I'll have to make John do all of the work while I supervise.

 

So it sounds like some here are leaning toward the pick up issue is from the wheels alone. Could it be in the small brass contacts that rub on the strips inside the tender? I was thinking of adding a small isolated springs to add tension on the strips to better insure contact with the wheel pick ups. What do ya think.

 

The phosphor-bronze pickup strips inside the LL or Kato or Bachmann tenders are definitely a weak point in tender pickup design. This is why I like the Athearn Challenger/Big Boy and Walthers Y3 designs better: they hard-wire the tender trucks instead of relying on contact between the truck wipers and the strips.

Providing better contact between the tender wipers and the strips will help with pickup issues. But there's a trade-off: if you put too much downward pressure on the truck wipers, then it will cause unnecessary drag on the wheelsets. That's why I prefer the hard-wire approach used in the Athearn and Walthers locos. But I guess that hard-wiring has its tradeoffs too, such as having the wires interfere with free movement of the truck. So I'm not sure there is any perfect system. All I'd suggest is: don't use to stiff a spring.

John C.

 

I would advise against springs. They become a weak link when current goes up. The Bachmann 4-4-0 uses springs as the contact method between the trucks and the tender frame. All it takes is one inadvertent derailment and resulting short circuit to heat the springs. This results in at minimum, weaking the spring, at worst, melting the trucks. I know from experience on the 4-4-0.

I really have no problem at all with the leaf spring inside the tenders and the drawbar spring wiper construction. When it comes right down to it, 95% of all modern N scale diesels use a leaf spring wiper to truck connection and don't have any problems at all. The only diesels I have had problems with are those with wires soldered to the truck, then up to the motor or lightboard. I think the leaf spring gives the trucks better freedom of movement and also helps with a little downward pressure on the axle points which improves pickup. If you look real close, it helps equalize the wheels on the track. I go out of my way to create the leaf spring pickups on tenders when I build or modify them. One of the worst running steamers in my fleet is a Kato Mikado that somebody hardwired the trucks and eliminated the leaf springs. The tender might as well not even be there because it runs the same with or without it. I gave up and put a spare tender I had from another Mikado project on it and the loco runs like new now.

 

Great fedback guys and thank you for those thorough explanations.

So adding the springs to the tops of the brass contact strips that ride on top of the axle contacts may not be the answer, but niether is hard wiring to the axle contact. Its starting to sound like the sliding (along the rails) contacts may be the way to go?

Does anyone know of a short issue within the Concor locomotive itself? I ask this as I hope to conquer the stop/reset/start issue before moving on to adding sound inside the tender.

 

Tony is right - there are plenty of N scale steamers that successfully use the contact strip method - Kato, for example. I was probably somewhat too critical, probably because of the issues I've had with Berk #738:tb-rolleyes: If the contact strips are flat and everything is clean, you'll probably be fine, and I'd try cleaning everything before doing anything exotic like sliding contacts.

John C.

 

I already dissmantled, cleaned, lubed, and treated electrical contact areas with contact cleaner, yet it still has issues.
This loco(not the tender) has considerable side to side play. Meaning while sitting on straight track I can twist the loco itself quite a bit. This makes me think there may be the possibility of a short caused by the drivers touching the frame. What do you think?
Has anyone determined if the motor is properly isolated on the Concor?

 

I am really glad I asked this question on here, the results and ideas put forward have really been great.

I wonder if anyone that has had trouble with hard wiring to the pickups (ie; Kato) has been due to too stiff a wire, I know I have some very fine, very flexible stranded wire I purchased some time back (just have to find it), I can't imagine any detrimental aspects using this wire.

Teditor.