The section of track in the helix going from the staging yard to your wye is another reverse loop Hemi. That short section is the culprit. It has to be isolated at both ends and treated as another reverse loop. I would have wired the loop in sections as I went up the loop. In that way you can test each few sections of the loop and then proceed to the top. Us, "old men" would work more slowly on this complicated section of track work. You have many things going on here. You have to work piece meal up the helix. Stay cool and run steam.........
The wye complicates everything.. You have an extra reverse loop that you're not addressing. Get rid of the wye and your problem wouldn't exist. Stay cool and run steam.....
I agree wholeheartedly! The only reason it's there is for visitors--continuous running. I isolated the Plain wye, and the reverse loop (staging return loop) Is it possible to have a short that doesn't shut the DCC booster down?
I had something similar on the JJJ&E where there are four reverse loops plus a turntable. Two of the reverse loops didn't look like traditional reverse loops and were causing problems until I identified them completely. This had to done "piecemeal" as I proceeded up a nolix. Just refocus on parts of the helix up to the top on a gradual basis. I know you want to get it operational, but slow down a bit. Stay cool and run steam.....
I think you have a third reversing loop which is the section of track leading from the staging yard up the helix to the wye. Stay cool and run steam.....
'Many things going on here'--you ain't kiddin'! I really appreciate your help, Bob, but my thick head is not comprehending how this would be another reversing section. Before I connected the mainline with the last piece of flex, the helix operated from one feeder set, on the lowest loop, with little or no voltage drop.
Remove several sections of track leading from the staging yard up the helix. You won't have a short when this is done. Your helix is wired from the top down to that point. If you rejoin those sections again, you'll short out the system. Stay cool and run steam.....
Install insulated joiners, you mean? I tested the quarter trick--the first loop, the fourth, and third shorted out when I applied the metal, but the second did not shut down then I shorted it. This doesn't make sense to me, as to how I shorted it. OK, I guess I do have a third reversing section, sure snuck up on me! Next question, since I have the layout wired as single power district, should I split it into 2? How then will I control the reversing sections? Certainly, there is a whatchamajig box out there in the DCC world that allows automatic control of reversing sections. A product that does more than one would be extremely helpful!
Would treating the helix as reversing power district fix the issue? Dave H, have you ever run across this before? You have a couple helices built...
Before I do anything drastic, I just traced the mainline, and the inside rail from Plain to Tunnel 10 changes to the outside rail at Tunnel 17, where the hidden flyover is. The polarity really doesn't change, but swapping the feeders around should do the trick... Is that bad logic? Maybe I should disconnect all my feeders, (only about 10 of them) and reconnect in bottom to top order... I still don't see a reversing district, just where the inside rail's polarity became swapped from the tracks crossing over themselves. All this is making my head hurt. It's bedtime. See ya'll tomorrow! Thanks agian, for your help!!!!
You don't need another power district in the helix. Where I would put a second power district is in a large yard and the staging yard where you'll have many loco's sitting. My second power district on the JJJ&E is the switching yard and turntable area, where I have many loco's sitting and or trains to be made up. Tony's Trains has many different reverse loop modules/switches on their site. You need one reverse loop module/switch for each reverse loop. If you use one reverse loop module/switch for two loops, there will come a time when your layout will short out. Individual reverse loop modules are a small price to pay considering the size and complexity of your railroad empire. I'm glad I could help you find the extra reverse loop. It's hard to do just looking at a photo, but your layout up the helix was similar to a section of the JJJ&E. Now if you think about it, that section of track which is your third reverse loop doesn't look like a typical reverse loop. It's just a loop of track. STay cool and run steam.....
Disconnect the feeders and start from the bottom up. You still have three reverse loops, the wye and two others. If you reconsider the wye, you won't have any problems. Stay cool and run steam......
Hemi I have draw out a simple diagram of your layout. I agree with Dave you have two reverse loops, one in the staging and one in the helix at the wye. Dave may have a point about the switches, I have no experience with Peco Turnouts though, so cannot comment further. Can I suggest you draw a simple diagram and show us which sections of track you have isolated, in the wye and staging. Based on your layout plan and your pictures of the layout I would be surprised to see the problem up in plains or the summit area. Unless you mixed the feeder polarity up. Draw out the schematic and show where the reverse sections you have identified and isolated are, that will help to understand what may be going on. Hope you had a good nights rest.
Hemi: This is the problem!! The insulated arm of the Y at Plain should be the arm that goes to staging, not the arm that goes to Crescent. If you insulate the one that climbs to Crescent you will still have a short!
I believe Dave H. is right. As best as I can tell the following image would be a simplified schematic of your layout (The yellow lines represent the insulated rail joiners): If you follow the arrows around the layout, you can see the problem. The following is what Dave is suggesting: There is one thing I do not like about this solution. It makes the reversing section pretty short. If all your rolling stock has plastic wheels it should not be a problem, but if you use any metal wheels then your train length will have to be shorter than the reversing section. You can not have metal wheels crossing both ends of the reversing section at the same time. Here is the solution I would try: As long as you do not have trains crossing the insulated rail joiners at each end of the helix at the same time then you can wire the helix as the reversing section and you still only have to have one reversing module. If trains will be crossing both ends of the helix at the same time then you would have to wire staging as one reversing section and the scenicked part of the layout as another reversing section.
Actually, there's only one section that needs to have a reverse loop module or separate booster... Assuming that your longest train fits between the staging yard ladder and the wye at the helix. 3 reverse loop controllers would work, but would certainly be overkill. 2, like Robert's last diagram, would never cause you trouble. But for now, you could just control that middle section.
Yes it is! Your bus wires and the rails all have resistance to them that increases with length. The more the resistance, the less current the short will draw. If the path of the short is long enough, it will not draw enough current to trip the circuit breaker. This is what is happening on your layout. The current draw is probably close to the limit of the booster, which is causing it to run hot and overheat. When you added feeders, you shortened the path of the short, this decreased the resistance, which increased the current draw enough to trip the circuit breaker. whatchamajig box(Digitrax PM42): http://www.digitrax.com/prd_powerman_pm42.php There may be others out there, but this is the only one I know of. It controls 4 power districts and each one can be regular or reversing.
Wow, you guys are good!!! I'll disconnect the offending feeders--I think I'll also install insulated joiners between staging and the helix, the other leg of the Plain wye, and the hidden flyover. That will separate the power districts/reversing sections. Thanks for the heads-up on the PM42, you really cannot do much better than that!!! 4 districts! 1 for the staging loop, one for staging, one for the wye at Plain, one for half of the layout. The booster will control the other half. Or will I need more components to work this? My Digitrax Super EB, and 5A power supply, plus the PM42 should do the trick, unless I need somethign else?
