I am running a Digitrax Supre Empire builder w/ (so far) all Digitrax decoders. There has been absolutely NO discernable noise. The ONLY noise is (which is to be expected) running "non-decoder" engines on '00' and hearing the AC square wave effect on a DC motor. However, I have only done this on a very rare occassion and it is no big deal. To answer the question.... decoders are (IMHO) quiet and have no "bothersome" effect on engine noise. -Kitbash
Hi Gary, At school a teacher once told me to be very attentive when others who speak more than one language have something to contribute to the discussion. They may get the terminology wrong or they may have problems pronouncing certain terms, but their thinking is probably not more muddled than your own! Chances are it is less so, being as they managed to learn a foreign tongue. BTW how is your German, French and Italian? A bit rusty, you say? Perhaps you need an extension course at OUC?!? And one more little item a DC motor is a DC motor, if it's in a RC car or a MRR engine makes little difference apart from size and quality. Coyote
Gary you must be a very frustrated man. Even if you don't agree with my post you should at least be friendly. I didn't attack you so don't attack me. I'm really astonished that you didn't rant about my english. In case you'll do please think a moment if your German or French is as good as mine. I believe that you're laughing about my post. That's probably all you ever learned. At least you never learned how to behave in social life. So maybe you should go back to school or even kindergarten to get some hints on how one talks to others. [ 30. August 2002, 20:34: Message edited by: sandro schaer ]
Right, There are two types of noise associated with DCC engines. 1) Noise that is the result of frequencies generated by the decoder. Anywhere from 75Hz to 15KHz. This usually disappears somewhere around 18-20KHz or rather humans can't usually hear it. This noise may also be amplified by the physical characteristics of the locomotive i.e. type of motor mounting, type of transmission, type of shell (can act like a sounding board). 2) Noise that is the result of commutator/brushes problems. This can sound like the gears are damaged and or the decoder is terribly set-up. Having done a few diagnostics on DC engines I would not pooh-pooh anyone's advice to check the brushes and commutator first. Matter of fact I would check that first unless I was absolutely certain that the engine was A OK prior to decoder install. There are many things a decoder will improve, faulty mechanical conditions is not one of them. The noises will/can get amplified in either case, it all depends on the harmonics of that engine. As to the tone of one or two posts, it is hard to reply to a rude post with gentle detachment. Even harder if that post is printed in UPPER CASE AS IF I WAS SHOUTING AT SOMEONE. I'm sure Gary gets the drift. Coyote
Odd, I understood the post about motor maint. quite well- I immediately figured out he meant carbon (graphite, if you will- it's carbon as well, as is coal, last I checked). Anyway, Sandro's advice works well for all of us, whether we're running DCC, non-DCC, R/C models, or even slot cars. I pop in from time to time to read up on DCC, and I learn a lot more from the questions asked (And solutions given) than I do rude posts by certain individuals. Sounds like it's not just the motors making "noise" Sandro, my friend, thanks for the maint. tips They're greatly appreciated.
Let's not be rude guys. Anyway to answer your questions about noisy DCC decoders. Yes there are some noisy decoders. These are some of your older decoders. They are still out there. You hear electrical clicks and interference. There is not much you can do about them except replace them with newer silent running decoders. Noise also depends on the motor you have in it. If you have an older motor, you are prone to more noise. A DCC decoder is not going to make a noisy motor quiet. But an older non-silent running decoder will make a silent locomotive noisier. If you want a quiet decoder, check out NCE's line of silent running decoders. These are usually designated with an SR somewhere in the model number. As for systems. I have a NCE and I really love it. If you can afford to go DCC, do so. You won't be sorry. Don't let a little noise stop you.
Friscobob glad I could help a bit. If you need more hints (maybe on cleaning and tuning fluids) please contact me offline. I don't want to be attacked again by some simple minded creatures. s@sschaer.com
Sandro Don't let a personality get to you; you are better than that.... PS. I was visiting your site again this labour day weekend and enjoying it.
Rick I have another 80-100 CP Rail pics I should upload. Just didn't find the time so far. Guess there should be some CN as well. Yep, and along with that homepage extensions I'll post some pics of my new G scale garden layout. So please re-visit my homepage from time to time. (Guess last addition were some pics of my car)
Lose the personal stuff or posts will be deleted. There is no need to attack another person or try to one-up someone. It will not be tolerated. Charlie
Maybe it's just coincidence, but it seems that when there's some heat - it's in a DCC forum. I've seen it recently in a couple of places (and I only visit a few). The trouble usually seems to start with an innocent "which system is best?" or "should I get DCC or not?", but the ensuing exchanges sometimes make the Taleban look moderate. Wierd or what ? . Moving slightly more on topic, the usual problem noise is indeed due to the pulsed nature of the power supplied to the motor by the decoder. However this is not actually a DCC problem, it is common to all pulse width modulated (PWM) drive systems including many 'normal' train controllers and right on through into drives for industrial machinery. The train of pulses is 'seen' by many components of the wiring and motor as high frequency AC which produces alternating magnetic fields. These can literally shake components (like laminations and brush springs), cause additional heating effects and incidentally cause radio interference. Hence there is some truth in tales of DCC systems damaging previously 'good' motors, though they would probably have suffered the same under some other systems too. Modern motors are generally made to closer tolerances than older ones and so have less potential to rattle. Disappointingly mundane really . Raising the frequency above the range of human hearing is the solution used to minimise the noise effects (the so called "silent" decoder), but the other effects may still be present and possibly worse. (For the record I have Soundtraxx decoders so my engines are very noisy )
Yep - I know what you mean about the DCC dog fighting. I'm even guilty of it too. Why? Well, one position that the "pros" of each camp take amounts to of bashing their competition and denegrating their users instead of building up their own products and letting the chips fall where they may. It's the Negative Campaign thing. That just ticks people off, and the battles begin.
DCC fights? Easily solved! Let the tech specs do the talking. Subjective impressions are just that. Coyote
bonkyrail I agree, but this degree of polarisation doesn't seem to occur with other matters. I've never seen a flame war over choice of track system, for example . Coyote Ahh. Would that life was so simple, but it never was or will be (and think of all the sales staff it would put out of work ). But even forgetting all the 'subjective' stuff, like how easy something is to use, how do you decide between a unit with the 'best' tech spec and one that costs half as much? Personal circumstance and preference HAS to be factored. Gary Sorry Gary, I take it that line is meant to tag onto Coyote's comment, but you've lost me here. All objects (mechanical or otherwise) have physical characteristics, else we wouldn't be able to perceive them.
When you get into subjective areas, you will always get arguements. Like Ford vs Chevy, EMD vs GE etc. Now it appears to be Digitrax vs NCE and the world. I may be a little guilty of praising one over the other, but I don't attack anyone personally. When it comes to DCC you have to find a comfort zone. This is ease of operation if you are a lone-wolf. If you are are going to have big operating sessions and go to other layouts, then you have to consider, what the other operators run, can they bring their own throttles, can you take your throttles to their layout, ease of operation for other operators and local expertise. Unless you have a small layout and are a lone wolf, price should not make that big of difference. DCC is like taxes, you are going to pay the same price in the end, it is just in the way they disguise it. As for silent decoders. I have been a member of a club for about 5 yrs, I have been to many shows, seen DCC demonstrations, and I only heard one decoder make a buzz. Do you know what? The sound the decoder made was only at idle and it did not make anymore noise than an Athearn pulling a big load. [ 03. September 2002, 16:41: Message edited by: ajy6b ]
[/QUOTE]Sorry Gary, I take it that line is meant to tag onto Coyote's comment, but you've lost me here. All objects (mechanical or otherwise) have physical characteristics, else we wouldn't be able to perceive them.[/QB][/QUOTE] Something strange going on here, two posts without without my reply showing up. Maybe I'm being censored. I understand what you're saying Mike and I guess you come from a school of teaching a lot more liberal than mine and it's all about how you were taught to relate to objects. I was taught to be specific and that a mechanical object (machine) could have physical properties, but not physical characteristics, only a living object ( organic?)could have physical characteristics. However, the way some of these motors act up on their own and do things they're not supposed to, I think you are right and from the way I was taught to look at objects, maybe they are beginning to develop physical characteristics. Back to DCC motors. The more I read here about problems with noise etc. involving DCC, and all the other problems related to it's operation, the less inclined I am to go that expensive route. Is there more than A.L. out there using ZIMO who can shed some light on it's operation as related to this subjects problems. I would like to hear their comments. Or is it so expensive that few people have it?
Gary, I deleted two of your posts because they were only quotes of other posts and no further typing was present. This thread will be allowed to continue under civil terms but any posts containing insulting words of any type toward another user will be deleted at once. Charlie [ 03. September 2002, 18:54: Message edited by: E-8 ]
Gary, I've been into DCC for a couple of years now, including running on other's layout. I never knew there was a noise issue until I saw some forum posts. My suggestion to you is forget the noise issue, it barely exists. I certainly wouldn't let it put a barrier in your way to going DCC. The issue is much ado about nothing. It's like not buying a car because you can't get the right slow speed on the windshield washer. I am not saying there aren't noisy engines out there, but they are definitely in a minority. I've probably heard a couple of hundred run on decoders without a noise problem, or at least one that I was aware of.
