And lets also not forget that Woodland Scenics ONLY makes built up kits. If you dont like the color it comes in..............too bad. What I dont like about that is that EVERYONES structures all look the same. And at $40-$50 for a built up structure, I am sorry I should be able to have it any color I want for that price. Ryan
Ken- I agree and yet also disagree on this with you. Yes the hobby still soldiers on,,,,,,but not like it used to be that is for sure. As you said things eventually evolve. Yes that is a fact! I wont disagree there. Paint still available...........I disagree. The number 1 mfg of RR paints turned their backs on us (and the RC modelers with Pactra) 6 months ago to cater to the arts n crafts store for what? More profit! Microscale never closed, that is true, but they have less available now then 5-10 years ago. We can thank people that make decals at home for that. And I for one am guilty (not making decals but have a friend of mine make them for me) of that. But what is one to do when the RR you model is not available commercially? I can see in the next 5-10 years that kits will be almost non existent, undecorated models will go by the way side to decorated prototype specific models (much like Athearns Genesis line), and for us people like me that like to have equipment that is as close to prototype specific as possible will have to completely build something on our own or pay and arm and a leg for it over the shelf because details will also be non existent. Honestly, to me buying prototype specific models and built up kits for a HIGH price tag is more determental to the hobby than what it is now. The MAIN reason I say this is we need more youngsters in the hobby (like me when I was 4 years old, a good loco could be had for $40 and the average price of a freight car was $5) and with prices sky rocketing for RTR models, that is the one thing that will keep someone from getting into the hobby that they are interested in but feel they can't afford it. Just my $0.02 on it Ryan
Point taken, we just have different views on things. From my perspective I would prefer more kit options because variety can be had for less, but if the market demands RTR then that is what the free market is all about. I have seen a static local market for individual freight cars and locomotives (at least in the brick and mortar store) but trainsets still sell despite their meteoric price increases over the past few years. To each their own. On this I agree and disagree. Sure the price of things have gone up but those less expensive items of our past cannot compete on the level of today's equipment. N scale prices are roughly inline with HO prices which is where I would expect a quality product. That said, I miss the days of the plastic chassis Life-Like locos which were pretty good all around quality and not too expensive. Beginner freight cars are hard to find as well, as I collect vintage B&M stuff I find myself missing the simplicity of the older cars and the amount of abuse their crude details could take. It would be nice if a manufacturer would step in and make some beginner grade stuff (Trainman is the closest we have today but even that stuff is a bit too nice for little kid hands). Of course, if someone tried, they might be decried for making non-prototypical equipment and obsolete mechanisms, but that level of product is still available in HO even if at an elevated price. Who knows though, if older equipment wasn't available for decent prices on auction sites I might be tempted to cast some old PS-1 boxcars for my kids to run. I have already had to make many of my own structures due to being priced out of that market (except DPM kits which I think are a great bargain). I guess that's my version of the hobby.
Of course Microscale has less. That is because of evolution. We have more people modeling BNSF, UP, NS, etc. And fewer people modeling the railroads of the past, small companies, or even steam. They aren't going to carry stock for items which no longer sell enough. If anyone can convince model railroaders to once again opt for the Fallen Flags, in much greater numbers... Which simply is not going to happen. Time has marched on. I am not any happier about it than you. BTW- It has not helped any, to have some small manufacturers of decals which have been fly by night, or extremely slow delivering what was supposedly in stock. With the pull back of that one paint company, Tru-Color Paint has expanded their line and has been very well received, by people I know who have tried their line. There are more laser kits than ever. Some are quite fantastic. I have seen this arguing for decades. The dire consequences still have yet to materialize. The sky is still up there.
BTW- I am certain there are too many reading my posts, and assuming I don't build kits. A quite incorrect conclusion. I enjoyed the Intermountain N kits, very much and built many dozens. I have a good supply of both N and HOn30 kits at hand, rolling stock and structures, slowly working through them. But my days of doing so seem to be in question, as health troubles just won't subside. So, I need RTR!
I would like to throw my .02 in here... IMHO...the RTR craze has gotten more popular because some modelers DEMANDED finer, better, higher quality details from the manufactures over the years. Mechs are pretty much basic...I can take a body off any diesel locomotive and service the mech fairly easy. Why would I want to buy a kit or something I have to strip and repaint or even an undec locomotive and then 'finish' the body with all the paint and fine detail when I can buy a fine looking RTR for about what a guy would put into a kit/repaint/details. This all goes for rolling stock too. Figure your time and $$$ you invest to get basically what I can...that looks great...and runs on my layout 2 seconds after dropping it out of the jewel box ! I wanna thank all you guys who DEMANDED..and are still demanding...all this finer detail and prototypically correct madness from the manufactures...especially in the last 4-5 years...<salute> !!! ** Yes...that last line was dripping with sarcasm ;-) To stay on topic...if Athearn never built another piece of N scale...anything...I dont see N scale suffering a bit. To many other manufactures and newcomers taking up the slack in the rope that Athearn hung themselves with...JMO !
This may be of interest about your final comment. By Brook Stockberger bstockberger@lcsun-news.com @Bstockberger on Twitter POSTED: 12/07/2013 08:33:02 AM MST LAS CRUCES >> Are gas prices nowadays the highest they've ever been? Sure, from an actual dollars and cents standpoint, but what about when it is adjusted to compare to the value of a dollar in past years? This month marks the 100th anniversary of country's first specially designed gas station. The Associated Press reports that it opened in Pittsburgh in 1913 and sold fuel for 27 cents a gallon. I'd love to buy gas for $.27, wouldn't you? Well, we would in today's value. With inflation, though, we learn from the Bureau of Labor Statistics 27 cents 100 years ago was was the equivalent of $6.39 per gallon in today's dollars. Yikes! One interesting fact that The Associated Press points out is that the first gas station was open 24 hours a day. Before gas stations came into existence, customers purchased gas from "roadside shacks that sold fuel from barrels." Mike
Not really as off topic as you might think. The market that Horizon functions in is a very complex thing, bringing new folks in is an aspect of it. The best way to get anybody into a new hobby is to get them DOING it. B&M shops are very important for this... keeping them going is therefore important for the long term health of companies in the market. How much of Horizon's perspective continues to be driven from the R/C side is an interesting question, but I will say that R/C cars are far more accessible to most youngsters than is model railroading. It's also where you're going to find more "flexible ethics" among the customers, simply because younger folks tend to have more flexible ethics. Mind you, I'm not saying that "when I was a kid, we had better ethics than these whippersnappers today", rather that as we get older and hopefully wiser, our ethics get somewhat better. A youngster is far more likely to claim "failed part" rather than admit "I tried jumping my R/C truck off the roof" Not all, or even most kids will do so, but if 5 in a hundred will, only 2 or 3 in a hundred middled aged adults will do so. As noted above, a B&M shop is much better at dealing with these issues. It's more likely to be a win/win/win, where the manufacturer, retailer, and customer are all happy in the end. Personally, I think the long term dominant form will be the hybrid, a business that gets the bulk of it's sales from etailing, yet still has a robust B&M.
Ah, so much to consider after reading this long and diverse thread..... First, why is it every time something happens in the corporate structure of the hobby, we all lament that the hobby will never be the same, and its sure to be all bad? Change is constant, and the industry has CONSTANTLY seen its fair share of change. And, to date, it seems to have always yielded better products at relatively cheaper prices as in the gas example. If our suppliers didn't become more efficient and business driven, they would have been out of business long ago. It is interesting speculation as to what old Irv might have done if he was still alive, but I am pretty sure someone would have nudged him out of the blue box era because it simply didn't work business wise anymore. Ditto micro scale. Not as available as before? Its only because fewer and fewer of us decal. It seems they try, as a small company, to keep putting out products they think we will want to buy, but its less and less as more schemes get factory done. BTW, RTR has been the trend in MRR since I was a kid in 1960's. And believe me, I wouldn't be a model railroader if things were made harder to put together. Not many of us really want harder in a hobby...... As to the post above, re "a business that gets the bulk of it's sales from etailing, yet still has a robust B&M" I will respectfully disagree. The US culture is convenience and low cost. As etailing matures, and becomes more reliable and convenient, it will dominate. I just don't see how the B & M shops can be robust if etailing provides most sales. In essence, they have suffered for 30 years, in slow drips, at the hands of mail order and now etailers. I just don't see how that will change in the future, although I also think it is nice to have those stores. I see two things happening - WGH, train shows and clubs taking a bigger role in getting new kids in. And, rather than cheaper products, which don't seem to sell, I see more of a "socialist" sales strategy, where everybody pays what they can afford for the basics, at least. Maybe the bigs will offer packaged sets (like Kato and MT do now) at break even or less prices. Maybe, some kind of first time buyer coupon program, like if you join junior NMRA or a club, you get a coupon that entitles you to 50% discounts (not sure of exact numbers) Maybe anyone can get a one time, or once a year promotion from the mfgs. Yeah, it sucks that us long time modelers have to subsidize the newbs, (but we are kind of conditioned that way in other areas anyway....) but I see that as being more viable than cheaper products. Obviously, I won't be the one offering that up, or figuring that out, but it seems more efficient to produce one line of products and selectively discount than to make a special effort to provide cheaper products. And face it, newbs want and really NEED locos and rolling stock that runs well and is problem free to keep up with the hobby. As always, JMHO.
Woodland Scenics does in fact make kits, in addition to their built up series. I'm looking at the kit of D's Diner as I type. It lists for $34.99(the built up version is called Drive-N-Dine and lists for $72.99 OUCH!) and you can paint it any color you wish and then assemble. And in addition to the Design Preservation Series kits, there are the modular pieces they offer in that product line. If you don't wish to assemble kits, then your kinda of limited to what a mfg would offer though.
Let's see how many old adage's and a few new ones, I can throw at this discussion. You pay for what you get. If you snooze you loose. See what you've been looking for you better run or buy it. Scratch built is best built. Body mounted is best mounted. Custom doesn't always mean from the ground up. I can see the light at the end of the tunnel...dang...it's the fast mail...RUN! Controversial adages: Turnouts, are called Switches, by most Rails. Rapido, horn hook couplers, gosh....sigh...we put up with these way to long. Adages, you are right that was a comment. Buy American made, buy locally. Micro-Trains is still made in America. We don't need any other stinking knuckle couplers all we need is Kadee and Micro-Trains. Me thinks I'm starting to make these up. Lament's are just that. Some make lemonade out of lemons while others make root beer (or some such) and piss it all away. Model Railroading is the same today and tomorrow. True or false? Oh sorry this isn't a quiz. Change is in the wind and let's hope it's not coming from the sewer pond. We've come along way baby. Live and let live. Some new ones: Common wiring is out, DCC is in. B&M is still the preferred way to buy. B&M isn't the only way to buy. Internet is taking over. If it's on the internet...it's true? The wise will do research. Buy today it may not be here tomorrow. E-Bay is also known as E-Pay. DIY's are usually the guys and gals you want to turn to for help. You still pay for what you get, it just cost's more. Your hobby supplies? What hobby supplies? Inflation is forever. GRRRRRR So is taxes. It's survival of the fittest. Birth is not a personal option. What we do between birth and death ...well...what do you think? MODEL RAILROADING! Disclaimer: This is a non-politically motivated discussion and is not paid for by any of the proprietors mentioned. Ok so the last part is true. On a positive note: I can set you up to buy a brass bridge.
Rick my friend... Ya need to vent that train shed ! Whatever fumes ;-) that are in there are gettin to ya...LMAO !!!
The peer pressure in clubs and by invitation only groups can be a real challenge. You either conform or your out. No one should have that kind of authority over my hobby. One of the reasons I don't and won't belong to a club. Hey, George. I haven't been out to the cat...uhh...err...train shed, except to feed the cat's. My mousers are doing a good job of keeping the rat population in check. Just fuming about some of the tell tale issues being disscusted here. Like you I appreciate the fact model railroaders have insisted on improvements in the hobby. Furthermore, how I spend my money...agreed...that's my business and no one else's. Kits, no objection on my part as I'd love to see for the HO and the N scale crowd a blue box reproduction of A type kits. It would be a way and means to bring the prices down....some!
Now that all the doom and gloom posters have showed up...here is a summation of the situation I posted on this topic in another forum. Athearn has nothing to do with this. The reason Horizon is doing this is some misses in the RC market. Specifically the Vattera RC car line and quite a few RC planes/helis in the Hobbyzone, Parkzone, and Blade lines. Horizon started cranking out product faster than the consumer could keep up and it finally caught up with them. At first, everytime a new micro plane or heli came out, people would be in line to buy one. Now customers are complaining that they are coming out so fast that they can't afford to keep up so they are picking and choosing what they want and if the product is even a bit off the mark, it is flop. Before, enough people would buy just because it was new. Look at their holiday sales. There are RC cars that they are dumping that are selling for less than half of what original selling price was, not retail but the original sale price. They are fire saleing them to free up capital. The MSR heli which once sold for $179 is no being blown out for $59.99. They learned that pump and dump marketing catches up with you eventually. They were putting a high price on their great customer service and warranty backing but that only works if you are selling lots of the product. If the product flops, it becomes a burden. They have also had a few pretty expensive recalls on items that they rushed to market and didn't take the time to do thorough product testing. The consumer became their tester and found the flaws. They stood behind the product but that costs a lot of money. We had a customer that lost his brand new Blade 350QX within a week due to catestrophic blade failure. Horizon told him to send in what was left and they would replace it. That is a $500 quad copter that they replaced without question and it wasn't the only one. They recalled the quads, replaced any that crashed, and sent new blades to everybody that bought one already. That is a major hit on a brand new product and that is just the most recent example. Stuff like that eats into profits quite quickly. Their great customer service insured that the quad still has a good name in the market and they are still flying off the shelves but if the blades were right in the first place, they wouldn't have had to blow all the profit made on the first batch, replacing them.
I just went out and peeked into the train shed. Nothing! The cat's were huddled up keeping warm and glad to see some food. "EEk"...good one Ken. Good to see our insider Mr. Skip, keeping us advised. Whatever the reason, it is what it is. Speculating, most likely for the better.
Tony.... If all you said in your reply above is true...and you honestly believe the bad decisions Horizon has made in their very lucrative RC bussiness is NOT going to adversely effect their Athearn end of the bussiness...especially the n scale side...to bail themselves out of the RC fiasco stated...you have to be the most optimistic person in the world ! Not that that is a bad thing. I just wish I had that much confidence in them. Me...I'm neither an optimist nor a pessimist...I'm a realist.
Athearn has been doing pretty good. Most things released since they have gotten production back on track so to say have sold out in a relatively short time. Remember, HO is still Athearns mainstay and HO sales have been doing just fine. The only major thing to come out of Athearn in N since production has been running again has been the Big Boy and Challenger re run, both gone. Yes the money comes from the same bank but Athearn is the one division of Horizon that is actually in a different facility than all their other accumulated brands. They are somewhat insulated from Horizon. I am a realist. Even with the issues, Horizon has a better name in the RC industry than any other source. The Spectrum radio system is used easily 10-1 over all other brands. Their big issue is getting greedy and once they found out that people were falling in love with their new releases, cranking them out faster than the public could keep up. If they re-organize and quit trying to go for quantity and head back to quality releases, they will be just fine. You guys are looking at it just from the persepctive of Athearn. There is a whole lot more to Horizon than just Athearn: All these lines are going strong: Spektrum TLR (Team Losi Racing) ECX (Electrix RC) E-flite Pro-Boat Blade Heli Parkzone/Hobbyzone Dynamite RC The only product line as a whole that may be questionable is the Vattera RC line that is newest line and is starting to gain its own identity. Plus the thousand or so other brands that they distribute but are not Horizon owned.
