Hi. Am new to list. I know what runs best for plastic diesels but what runs best for steam excluding brass. ex bachmann spectrum steam.
The Athearn Genesis series 2-8-2 and 4-6-2 locos run very well indeed. But they need their front pilot trucks tweaked as that setup often derails. IHC steamers aren't horrible. Not the greatest but not bad either, what they really need is some more weight in the boiler, over the drivers.
They are not being currently manufactured, but Mantua steam engines, especially those made after 1994, are really good. The later models have can motors and run extremely well. Those made before 1994, including Tyco engines, are also good, though the motor doesn't have the same quality. Mantua did offer a repowering kit for older engines, but I don't know if any are still available. Pat
I have to say that all posts so far are quite right. Sadly I miss Mantua myself! Wonderfull running steam loco's! However, Rivarossi makes some good medium dollar steamers and also high dollar steamers as well. 80 percent of my steam collection is Rivarossi and Mantua! I have 2 TYCO older steamers pre 1970. Anything after 1970 made by TYCO were a nightmare! Being the 1970's (1970-79) were tender powered dummies. In other words, the drivers under the boilers were free rolling and the tender had the motor in it and geared tender trucks. Which pushed the loco and all to look like the drivers were powered. This was a bad design of any that I know of! Being that a brand NEW TYCO of this design was lucky to pull 3 freight cars (including a caboose) for more then 20 minutes to a half hour! Thats all it took to burn the motor up in those! But, they can be made into nice dummy steamers to go along with a good powered loco to look like a double header! I do this alot with trains, 2 powered loco's on the front of the train pulling and one of the dummies on the rear just rolling along, looking as a helper! As for the Rivarossi loco's, these are well made. Old or new. BUT besure if you purchase one you use White Lithium Marine Grease thats used in fishing reals and on boats, as it will not attack plastic no matter how much is put on the gearing! This is due to the fact that the drivers of Rivarossi loco's have plastic driver spokes! And most oils and grease attacks the axle center in the drivers and throws the driver out of round. And the Lithium Grease will not effect the plastic gearing as well, concidering the new Rivarossi loco's have Teflon/Mylar gears and not like the older AHM Rivarossi that had brass gears! In both cases both era loco old or new should be well maintenaced at all times. Make sure gearing thats brass has moderate lubercation, as well as the new plastic gearing. BUT do NOT over lubercate! This does more harm then good! On the older AHM Rivarossi loco's when putting grease in the gear boxes be sure to check for brass shavings! Its running low on grease and will wear the brass gearing! As for Mantua and maintenace, oils or grease either is good, being these loco's are solid metal.. No plastic driver spokes or anything like that, they however do have Mylar gears, pressed onto the metal axles. which is slippery machine plastic. Caution here would be use only plastic compatable oils and grease, I use the same White Lithium grease for all my loco's including my diesels, but I'm sure their are other good grease types and all for this. Oils tho, I don't recomend any for the fact that alot are harmfull and attack plastic, even if it says "plastic compatable" beware! Most oils will attack plastic, companies say not, but they don't attack as fast or as bad, if lightly oiled, over-oiled with any oil will attack plastic! EVEN the Labelle oils! I found this out on trial and error! I do alot of custom work and all plus anything else involved with machine work and mechanics in the hobby.. Just use some common sence and grease moderately to light. Nothing heavy.. and you won't have to much trouble. As for Bachmann from the 1970's and 1980's these were horrible! I have a few, not worth to much to me. As for Spectrum. I have the 2-10-0 and its a blessing compared to the old Bachmann steamers! I also have my share of IHC steamers, and even tho the older ones are a bit lousy, they can be made into good pullers! I have 2 IHC 2-8-2's that pull really well for being 1980's dated! Added weight as said in previous posts, and a new can motor fitted to the loco, and you have a pretty good loco from IHC, add as much weight as possible, for the new motor! I wouldn't recommend this with the original motor however! Cost for that would be around $20 to $25 if you do the work. You'll pay more for someone to do the work for you. HTH [ 16. October 2002, 22:06: Message edited by: 7600EM_1 ]
Those Athearns are light locos. The 4-6-2 weighs in at 12.75oz and the 2-8-2 comes in at 13oz. You may have to add more weight to the boiler to avoid wheel slippage. You don't say if you are DCC but as an in-expensine alternative go to www.ihc-hobby.com and click on,on-line catalog,click model trains, click HO, click steam. You get a good infor on each loco plus some of the tender units also pick up track current. [ 17. October 2002, 10:24: Message edited by: locomotive2 ]
I have two Bachman Spectrum Consolidations. They are good runners. I am not sure about other Bachman's. Let's say I have not heard rave reviews about them. I have an Athearn Genesis 2-8-2 that is ok. It needs weight in the front to prevent derails. Actually some of my better performers are my old IHC locomotives. I have one with a smoke unit that I used to dig out when young kids were visiting.
Bowsers are good loco's. BUT they are NOT ready to RUN! These are all kits! Expensive kits that come in a box thats nothing but parts! Once put together and properly adjusted they run well! BUT again, I'm not fond of the open frame DC-71 motor and I retro fit them with large Mabachi, or Sagami can motors! To assemble a Bowser you need a ton of patients, and a few good tools, such as a good set of mini riffler files, and a good machinist hammer, and a good machinist's basterd file. And various screw drivers, and even a metal lathe or small bench top milling machine for precision filing and finshing. And a good hot oven for heating the metal surfaces for painting, to open metal pores for holding paint so it will prevent paint chipping in time. Don't get me wrong or take me wrong, you don't HAVE to have these tools, but I recommend having the basic ones! A skilled machinist would have the Lathe, and milling machine already so... But the files and hammer are basic tools that are small in size, for precise filing and precise hammer blows for assembling certain parts. All to ease assmbly! Plus Bowser loco's are ALL METAL! NO PLASTIC in these loco's and are heavy. Which will pull well and not slip the drivers too easily! And do not have rubber traction bands, they don't need them to pull a good length train! I have assmbled quite a few Bowser loco's and I'm currently working on 3 Bowser Challengers, one of which belongs to a TrainBoard member! Which is very close to finishing! And I own a few as well... nothing of the Challenger size, however, but I do have 2 Bowser I-1 Decapods, and a Bowser 4-8-2, and a Bowser T-1 4-4-4-4. In buying a Bowser loco, do NOT think these loco's can be assembled in one night. This will not happen! It takes time to assmeble these loco's correctly and in good running condition, they have slight tolerances that needs to be free moving and or free rolling and have to be properly assembled for their tolerances. Or the loco will not run smooth. Any questions on Bowser loco's you can e-mail me from the e-mail address in my signature, or by clicking this link to my e-mail address at: yellowstone10@hotmail.com And I'll do my best to help with questions and all on building these loco's. [ 20. October 2002, 06:35: Message edited by: watash ]
I have a Bachmann 2-8-0 that has worked very well for two years. There was a electrical connection that went awry in the tender, but it was easy to fix. The other steamer that I have had great results with is a Bachmann 4-8-4 NYC engine. These retail for around $50-$60. I have had one for close to a year and have not had a problem. It's a great puller, handles 18" radius curves(even at full throttle) and looks pretty good (after conversion into a MILW S3 it will look even better). It even has a smoke unit!! This feature may sound kitsch, but the young ladies that visit the crib really like to see this. I never knew HO operation would figure into foreplay. I would almost consider the whole situation Freudian, except I have no tunnels on my layout Mark
Forgot to comment on the Athearn Genesis 2-8-2, and 4-6-2. I must say, I'm not fond of these 2. They are too light for one! They do NOT have much room in the boiler to add weight to help aid the front driver problem! And they have sprung drivers, and the driver springs are WAY to stiff to let the wheel travel. As for pulling, they don't pull well because of the weight issue. However, I'm not fond of traction bands on the drivers because these will not let the drivers slip to keep the motor spinning. If the drivers won't slip, this stalls the motor to then generate more power to make the motor spin (rotate the motor shaft), and will stall it and make excessive heat which will burn the brushes up or the comutator in the motor. Which ruins the motor, and if it gets hot enough will melt the boiler casting where the motor is from the heat. Plus the motor drawing more AMP to make it spin, will cause the transformer to over heat as well. Which is again not good. But, I have 3 good 2-8-2's, two of the 3 are IHC and the other is a Rivarossi. And my two 4-6-2's are Mantua's! so.. Which all run very well! [ 17. October 2002, 19:39: Message edited by: 7600EM_1 ]
Was no one going to mention that the best plastic steam out there - bar none - is the LifeLike Heritage collection? Bachmann Shay is awesome too. I love my Rivarossi Cab-Forwards and am keeping my eye on the Broadway Limited stuff (hoping for some SP!). People say the TRIX Big Boy is really good too.
John (7600EM_1) how about MDC ready to run and kits? Do you have any experience with MDC kits? If so, comments? Thanx. Mark [ 20. October 2002, 04:31: Message edited by: El Paso Mark ]
Actually, not all the Tyco steam engines made in the 70s had the motor mounted in the tender. I received my first train set, a Tyco Shifter set, in 1974. The 0-4-0 shifter had the motor mounted in the engine. I also have a Tyco catalog from 1974, and it doesn't mention any tender-mounted motors in it. I suspect that Tyco didn't start doing this until a year or so later. Maybe with the Chattanooga 0-8-0? Pat
As you can tell from the variety of responses, steam can be a very tricky call. Prices range from the $50-60 level to $500 for the trix. So really, it's the bottom line. How much are you willing to spend? and try and match that to the performances listed here. John Patton holds a master license in HO Boiler Steam operations and is the best in the East from the Great Lakes to the Atlantic. Do come back for more assistance.
Mark, MDC kits or Ready to run are good. However, these 2 types of loco's from one manufacturer are the exact same. So, if you have say, a MDC 3 truck Shay, in kit form. The ready to run loco is the exact same thing! The thing is, the ready to run is going to be more expensive. Being its assembled. And factory painted. I have nothing against MDC. These are well made, even tho they are mixed in parts with plastic and cast metal. I have a few MDC kits that I'm working on, only I'm going to do alot of surgery to them. So its taking me awhile to complete the kits. I like the kits myself. But then I make alot of changes to the bodys and all. So, buying one ready to run is more work to disassemble it to make the changes I want for the prototype I'm making. I have one thats assembled and runs and it does it well. I have never once had any trouble with it. I do however recommend using White Lithium Marine grease in all loco's for what I've found and seen over the years. Pat, I have to say, that the little 0-4-0 is NOT TYCO! Its Mantua! You see, the days of Mantua and TYCO are very easily separated. What you had was a Mantua 0-4-0 in a TYCO box! See in the early 1970's Mantua had partnered with TYCO (the owners were brothers or cousins, I can't remember exactly) However they used alot of Mantua's dies and tooling and made alot of loco's with the motor in the boiler. These were Mantua. And then the TYCO side had packed these loco's in TYCO boxes! See? It was a family thing with the 2 companies. In the 60's Mantua was owned and made what were are all fond of. motor in the boiler powering the drivers. Then TYCO formed and used a different type of tollling and alot of the tooling for TYCO had the powered tenders. This meaning, The tender trucks were powered which would push the loco being it was free rolling. They had advertised this type of design, better then the Mantua design. Being it was a family feud type deal. So, they sold and sold well. However the motors used by TYCO were next to worthless. Even with a TYCO power pack they never ran well.. I have yet to find one that does. And I've handled thousands of them! Anyway, in 1977 (I think) Mantua and TYCO had split and they were again 2 separate companies. So, they carried on their style of designs. The TYCO stuff was the tender powered stuff. The Mantua line was its famous self. Durring the time that Mantua and TYCO had went together... Mantua was the design being made.. packed in TYCO boxes. This made everyone think that the loco was TYCO, it was actually Mantua. And then you have the design of Mantua with "TYCO" stamped in it from this era too. Then you could get a design of the same 0-4-0 with "TYCO-Mantua" on it too! BUT that little 0-4-0 was actually a Mantua design. With whatever name is stamped on it or whatever box it came in.. Anything from the TYCO era, with the motor in the boiler is a Mantua design! See? How I know all that with the 0-4-0, I own 6 of them! And I have the different stampings on them with the motor in the boiler powering the drivers! I have one with "TYCO" on it on the engine bed plate. Then another with "TYCO-Mantua" on the same engine bed plate. And then another one with "Mantua" stamped on that same plate! ALL these plates are interchangable! See? The Mantua/TYCO thing is confusing. Sometimes hard to understand... You just have to look at the loco and how its designed to tell the difference if its Mantua or TYCO. TYCO listed 4 loco's the following: 0-4-0 4-6-0 4-6-2 2-8-2 As their own in the 70's. They were their own. Sadly of the Mantua design! Thing is, the only 2 REAL TYCO steamers were the following: 2-8-0 0-8-0 Any loco you get with TYCO stamped in it with the motor in the boiler or poored metal parts is in fact Mantua design. And made by Mantua with the TYCO name stamped in it. Being the 2 companies once worked together. As for the TYCO loco's the real TYCO loco's were all plastic, with "TYCO" stamped in the plastic. These were the real TYCO design... They never made any of the real TYCO's designs when the 2 companies were together.. It was all Mantua's designs being made, with the TYCO name on them, and packed and shipped in TYCO boxes. And thanks Chuck for the kind words! I been at the HO boiler works for a long time. Seen alot, done alot, and learned alot. It takes time and alot of nose in book reading.. All worth it when you become familar with the designs and materials used... Hands on is even better... [ 21. October 2002, 02:33: Message edited by: 7600EM_1 ]
The two sweetest runners I've seen yet are my LL Proto 2k 2-8-8-2 Y6 and the Rivarossi Allegheny 2-6-6-6. These both run like swiss watches, and are very impressive. I also like the way the LL Proto 0-8-0 runs. Makes for a purrfect yard switcher.
John, Trust me, I'm very familiar with the Mantua/Tyco story! There was an article in MR about Mantua in the early 1980s. Both companies were owned by John Tyler. Mantua sold kits, and Tyco was formed to sell ready-to-run trains. This was the only difference between the two lines. Tyco was sold to Consolidated Foods in the early 1970s (1972, I think) and Mantua was closed. In 1977, the Tyler family repurchased the rights to the Mantua name, along with the dies for making engines and cars. At that time, Tyco went with the cheaper mechanism in the tender (at least, that's my suspicion). John, you are quite right about my engine being a Mantua, since the original mechnism and shell were designed under the Mantua name. I just always think of it as a Tyco, since that was the brand name it was manufactured under. I'm not trying to nickpick, but I do know my Tyco/Mantua! Pat
Pat, HA! The Mantua/TYCO story is about as bad as the Rivarossi/AHM story! It confuses almost everyone! Anyway, I'm familar with most of the story andn what happened.. Thing is. I know the designs better to see them instead of seeing a manufacture name on the item! I know the different type of tooling most of the companies used. Not just limited to Mantua and TYCO. But Rivarossi, and Con-Cor, and IHC, AHM, Penn Line, Mehano. etc. Theirs alot to be understood and all and most only get parts of it. Sadly they see a name in something and then right away you got an arguement. Being it has a specific name stamped in it somewhere. Like for instance, the Con-Cor HO SD-35, its actually a Con-Cor body on an Atlas powered frame. Maybe just maybe the body shell is made by Atlas too. And Con-Cor bought the francise from Atlas. See? Alot of contravercy... And for some its hard to understand.. Its all has to do with the tooling of design and who made it. It can be a crazy thing to explain.... I still like Mantua design the best. better quality! And I can't forget Rivarossi. Even tho they're plastic...
John, No argument from me! Following dies can be tricky! At least, Mantua's are fairly easy to follow, since they never really left the company, except when Tyco was sold in the 70s. Also, I'm sure that Con-Cor's diesels (GP38, GP40, SD24, SD35) use the same shells that Atlas made in the mid-70s. Why spend precious $$$ on new dies when you can simply purchase ones already made? Pat
