Excellent Aurello. I'm a big fan of trolleys, especially the PCCs that would run here in the Washington, DC area (and even in Northern New Jersey, too!). I've always wanted to have a trolley layout, and even though the town I'm basing Wellington on (Glen Rock, NJ) doesn't have a trolley, the good thing about having a fantasy railroad is that you can "make it so". So there. :tb-biggrin:
Some more modifications... Based on more of what I've read here on TB, here's the latest version of the PW&NJ. Any feedback is greatly appreciated, as usual. :tb-biggrin: Changes include: modified the sidings at the top decreased the grade on the coal company feeder to just over 6% (down from 7%) increased the radius from 4.5" to 5.5" on the oil company feeder changed the switching and main line at the switch near the station added interlocking tower in the space left from that change
Anyone interested in following this, I've now started posting to my blog here on the site. I started working on one of the structures for my town and will be posting photos of the layout and related construction as it progresses. Thanks, Matt
Cool turret at the gas station! (was it always a gas station?) Very groovy scratch project: looking forward to seeing it done. (unless you get stuck-o )
It has a potential to become a very nice project... you are off to a very good start. I just have a few doubts in the design part - I just spotted an s curve on the left side of the big yard - are you planning to take that off? The yard section is pretty big with two forks going in two opposite direction - i would put at least one passing siding there (possibly two - even better, a couple of overlapping passing sidings...) Given the size of your layout, I would bring a little 'fluidity' in the tracks rather than keeping them parallel to the edge of the benchwork. I would actually bring curves in the benchwork itself! Well these are my ideas, but overall I really like your design and I'm sure it's great fun!
OUCH! Where's my snare and high-hat? :w20z6q: Yep, was built in 1927 as a gas station (should have a photo or two coming soon). I'll post em when I get em.
What, you don't like a little slalom action on a layout? Maybe I could put big orange cones on either side and race trains to see which one can handle it at the highest speed? Yeah, that's the ticket! ;-) Meanwhile though, the purpose of that S-curve was to ease the train into the reverse-loop before it goes under the highway, gets hidden behind the rest of the yard (might use a mirror here to "extend" it) and comes out under the big city passenger station in the far "outside" platform (the other platforms will be faked in, probably with photos or art). Because of the space I'm working in, and the intention of keeping this as a "portable" layout, I'm very (really very) limited in how much space I have to work with. The main layout is a full-size HCD, which explains why it's a big rectangle. The yard section is another HCD (24" cut down to 12" except at the end) that is removable (will use latches on the bottom with furniture dowels for alignment and quick-disconnect plugs for the wiring). Plus, I wanted to keep the yards big enough to fit a yard full of cars and allow for some classification switching and train building (my son enjoys this... really, he does!). If you want to sketch up some ideas, I'm always open to feedback. Two requirements though are that it must have a reversing loop, and it must be 12" wide (other than the reversing loop at the bottom). As for the curves in the benchwork, won't do it for the main layout portion (large HCD) but I think you've got me convinced to use it on the yard extension. At the very least, I'll be smoothing out the bulb at the bottom, easing it into the curve and around to the bridge over the tracks. Might also curve it in to where it connects with the main layout (that'll give it a little more water, and room for a tugboat!). Thanks for the feedback!
"If", and that's a big "if" you really want to decrease that branch on the grade, you need to lower the track under it. Start from your passenger station in the front, go downhill to where the track crossing is, and then start climbing back up in the back. Hold yourself to no more than about 3%. I suspect that will get you enough more headroom so that you can do more like 4.5-5% on the hill. That however, takes what is a pretty simple benchwork and makes it into a challenge. It depends on whether or not you're comfortable (on a first layout like this) with making grid benchwork with cookier-cutter instead of the HCD thing. I'll admit that my very first N layout was cut-out thin plywood grades on TOP of an HCD (with lots of riser blocks), and it would have been just fine if I hadn't also insisted on a hidden yard between the layers. Also, don't forget that while there may have not been double-ended PCC's in New Jersey, there were in places like Dallas, later in Boston. For the price of another used PCC shell, you can graft them together, end to end. Essentially, that's all they were. http://home.gwi.net/~carshop/trolley//photos/mta3340.jpg I have drawings of these cars if you ever want to take it that seriously.
Matt and Son: Welcome to Trainboard! Would these variations help you accomplish what you want with the elevated siding? The building on the right that covers the two-ended siding looks a little like it will be used to load hoppers, and the track and "coal facility" building above the main line and siding look like they may be positioned to load one hopper by emptying another hopper. If both are dealing with the same commodity, you could probably move them closer to each other so you could shorten the siding and avoid having to rise enough to clear the main line. Instead of emptying the coal into another hopper along the main, you would empty the coal/sand/gravel/ballast/rock through a grate where an auger or conveyer would lift it into a storage bin, tower, or pile. By moving the structures closer together, you would probably also eliminate the need for the 2-ended siding (i.e., a single turnout would create a siding for each building). If they are businesses handling two different kinds of commodities, could one business be located about half way between where the two buildings are currently positioned, and the other business be located toward the upper left corner of the plan (or above and to the left of where the right building is presently located)? Again, one turnout would be sufficient to serve both industries. If you are elevating the track to achieve a sense of separation from the rest of the city, you could still introduce a grade to get to the businesses, but it would not have to be so steep (and will be a LOT easier to scenic in a realistic way). If the elevation is needed to provide a tunnel portal to hide the end of the trolley track, that purpose could be achieved with a view block made of dense trees on a low hill to accentuate that the trolley has traveled out of town, or judicious placement of a building or partial building to give the impression the trolley is still in town (although using building(s) will probably weaken the sense of separation achieved by elevating the nearby siding and raising the terrain around the 2 structures served by the rising siding).
Excellent, we think alike! Since I'm going to be using 2" foam for the main surface, I'll have plenty of material to allow for a smooth downgrade from the station and back up inside the tunnel and up the back double-track straight section. And indeed, this should let me get the grade down to around 5% or lower. What I was actually thinking was to cut straight down into the foam and remove a big letter C. Then I can either A) cut my grade nice and easy without having to dig, or B) custom cut some thin plywood or masonite and put it in there with something underneath to support it. Then I just paint the surface, add my cork and lay in the track. As for open-benchwork experience, we did that as kids on the family layout. I'm just trying to avoid it now to save time/money (two things in very short supply). I just KNEW someone had to have made a double-ended PCC. Excellent! Looks like Pacific Electric used to use them exclusively, too. And I also found this: http://www.heritagetrolley.com/images/PCCBrochure.pdf Photos, blueprints, details, and they're even for sale! And then there's this page with tons of photos of PCCs in the 'Burgh! http://www.pittsburghtransit.info/index2.html They had at least one double-ended unit as well. Anyway, thanks for the lead. Now if I can just find an extra shell...
Thanks Dave, very glad to be here! Not sure if I understand which building you're referring to so I'll quickly identify the industries on the layout. Starting top left, on the mountain we've got a coal mine (an old Pola one that my dad and I built a gazillion years ago) that I've been waiting forever to put on a layout. Then we go to the top far right where we've got a factory that features a siding leading into an open roll-up door as well as space for truck trailers to unload next to it (haven't exactly decided on what this factory will make, but I really liked an article I saw in MR where someone did this). Below that, slightly to the left is a petroleum transfer station where tank cars come in and unload into tanks that feed the tank trucks serviced by the access road. Follow the inside track around to the middle where you'll see small manufacturing plant with a pass-through siding for easy access. Then finally we move left to the end of the line and the freight depot. Down on the yard extension we've got a combined engine/car shop facility (top left), the yard office (down a little and to the right, which I'm moving down next to the engine shed on the bottom left), a machine shop (which I'll probably keep up here and add another switch and track up there to handle some steam operations (note the water tower in place there) and a place for cabooses , then a switch tower (on the left in the middle), and the engine shed (bottom left). Next to that will be the fuel and sanding area for diesels. The vehicle bridge over the tracks at the bottom of the layout leads to the road on the right which goes in front of the station (Pearson Terminal, which will look a lot like Hoboken Terminal) so taxicabs and buses can pick up and drop off passengers. Under that will be the rest of the reversing loop and I'm adding another track, plus a switch leading off to the right to more station tracks (which I'll paint on to the background). These will have platforms with passengers, etc. I'd thought about using buildings to hide the trolley, and I'll be using a little bit, but this section of town is where the residential areas are so I'll probably have a house up there, then some larger trees. I really like the idea of a tunnel there though. It keeps the road from just abruptly ending and certainly works as a great place for the trolley to hide. Nevertheless, the coal mine was planned at a higher elevation prior to planning the tunnel specifically to give it some separation from the town, and also to give it an exit across a bridge that leads off-layout (potential expansion or maybe connect a cassette?). And since I'm going to use some theater-trickery to hide the steep grade (trees and landscaping), even if I left it at about 6% where it is now, as long as the locomotives will climb the hill, I'm not too worried about it. Nevertheless, I'll be dropping it a little with the lowering of the main line on the left side of the layout. Thanks loads for the feedback! -Matt
Modifications to the track plan are coming along quite nicely. I've got two tracks through the station now instead of one, moved the yard office next to the engine shed where I think it fits better, and smoothed out the edges in the benchwork for the yard extension. Now I'm working on adjusting the mainline at the bottom of the main layout to be a long, smooth curve (about 120" radius). The station in Glen Rock is on a slight curve as well, so this makes it match the prototype a bit more, not to mention removes the long flat straight section across the front. I think that will go a long way towards making this seem more realistic, and less toy-like. Meanwhile, I'm replanning the structure layout of the town, incorporating a lot of scratch-built buildings based on ones in Glen Rock. I hope in the end that someone from there (or who's visited) would recognise the similarities and notice the differences. Should be fun! And thanks to Randy, here's what's next for the layout: Can't wait to get that on the real workbench. Now I need to find another shell...
Matt: Sorry for the confusion...my fault. I had initially started my post with a sentence about the steepness of the grade to the mountain siding, but subsequently edited it out. Unfortunately, that sentence also identified the part of the layout that the rest of the post was about. Thanks for identifying the buildings. I had misinterpreted the bridge over the main to the left as a second business at the end of the elevated siding that transferred loads from hoppers or trucks on the upper level to trucks or hoppers on the lower level siding. As an alternative to lowering the main and siding on the left side of the layout and hiding a grade to climb past the coal tipple and across a bridge (into a cassette or future expansion), would initial construction and later scenicing be simpler if you positioned the cassette parallel to the left side of the layout and backed into it from a turnout on the main line in the lower left corner of the layout? Or, from a turnout in the same corner with points going the other direction, could you pull into a staging cassette that was supported parallel to the front of the layout? Another option (my preference) might be to place the cassette parallel to the front of the yard. This yard cassette would be designed so it could be accessed from either end. Facing the yard, to access the left end of the cassette, a right handed turnout inserted in the mainline somewhat right of center of the city area would curve across the river on a rail bridge to where the yard cassette was supported along the front of the yard. Trains would leave the yard and circle counter-clockwise around the layout as often as you wished, and then would pull forward across the river into a staging cassette to finish their run. The right end of the cassette could be accessed from a turnout off of the front side of the reversing loop. With a minor shifting of the classification tracks in the yard, you could add a 5th classification track that ties into the back (far right side) of the reversing loop. Part of an operator's duties would include wearing the yard hostler's hat and moving recently arrived power from the cassette to the engine facilities in the yard and then putting on his yard switcher's hat to move cars from the cassette to the 5th track in the classification yard to include in later trains that would be sent out of the yard and around the layout. As you acquire more engines and cars over the years, rather than moving power to the engine facilities and cars onto the 5th classification track for recycling around the layout a second or third time in the same session, you could use 2 or 3 extra cassettes to rotate all cars and power from 2 or 3 trains off of the layout, so they are only used once in an operating session. At the next operating session, the extra cassettes would be used to bring 2 or 3 sets of cars and power back onto the layout, as if the cars or engines were being brought from another part of the yard that is not modeled. (Essentially, using 2 or 3 cassettes to hold cars removed from the layout last session, could allow your 5 track yard to function as if it had 7 or 8 tracks; and using 2 or 3 cassettes for holding cars removed from the layout in the current session, would be like having a 2 or 3 track staging yard. Lots of operating capacity in the real estate taken up by just a single width of track.) Choosing a different way to move into a cassette or onto a future expansion would let you use a gentler grade up to the coal facility.
Not a problem. I do the same sometimes. Those are definitely some interesting ideas. But first, the main reason I used the bridge over the main line on the left was to allow enough space for a loco and at least one car to make moves around the passing track to spot cars at the mine. It also allows a way for trucks and other vehicles to leave the mine area. I saw the potential for future expansion both up there and in the tunnel after I had extended the the line. I think I'll still lower the main on the left though. I think trains will look pretty good coming up grade out of the tunnel with a switcher and coal car on the bridge. As for a cassette coming off the yard, we're definitely both on the same page. First, since time and money are tight, I will probably have to build the layout in phases. So before the yard gets built, I'll probably have a cassette coming off the main layout right past the lift bridge. Later, once the yard extension is complete, I can use the cassette there, coming off the reversing loop. Options include pulling it off the main loop at the bottom left, or even better, put a switch on the bottom of the loop and bring it out from under the elevated roadway (where it can be easily hidden). I could even do both, and have a wye feeding the cassette into a two or three track mini-yard. Lots of interesting options here! Meanwhile, based on more feedback, here's the latest iteration: Nimo, the S-curve is gone, and the benchwork is curvy. I've also added a second passenger track, plus a fake switch leading to the rest of the station tracks (which will be painted on the backdrop). I'll have a platform in between those tracks, plus part of one glued to the wall and more theatrical trickery. The station (above on the elevated roadway) will be modeled pretty closely on Hoboken Terminal (renamed Pearson Terminal), complete with Lackawanna sign, clock on a pole in front of the entrance, and tower clock overhead. Backdrop will include hazy views of the NYC skyline, including twin towers. The previously way-too-straight track on the front of the main line has now been switched to a nice, smooth s-curve. This also allowed me to move the interlocking tower to the front, making for a more interesting photo ops. I also adjusted the sidings at the top of the yard to allow for a place for the steam engine to be serviced (Southern Railway Mikado #4501, of course! on loan to PW&NJ for excursion service). Thanks again for all of the feedback. The PW&NJ has come a long way from that scribbled track plan on graph paper from 20 years ago! -Matt
And now that my layout testing department (aka my 9-year-old son) has had some time to review it, it's a notable improvement from before. He especially likes the new station track. Thanks TB for all of the help so far!
I might not understand where you are exiting the layout to get to the Yard Cassette...Did you plan to exit the main at a turnout located on the right or lower right of the curve by the river, sort of about 3:00 or 4:00 and then have the track travel across the river and then curve, so your track into the cassette is pointing straight down the front of the yard? If so, you may find operations a little less frustrating (and a little more prototypical), if you consider an alternate starting point to exit the main and enter the cassette. Assuming you usually leave the yard by the track at the top of the yard, you will usually be traveling counter-clockwise around the layout. If you can only access the Yard cassette by coming off the curve at the 4:00 turnout when traveling clockwise, you will only be able to get into the cassette by backing into it. And if you leave the yard by going around the reversing loop, over the cassette at the front of the yard and then onto the layout, you will still be traveling counter clockwise around the layout and will only be able to get back into the yard by backing your train from the top of the layout into the upper entrance to the yard and over the river into the yard. Instead of exiting to the cassette with a backing maneuver, please consider putting your turnout from the layout to the cassette just to the right of the middle of the mainline as it runs across the bottom edge of the layout. This will let you pull out of the yard on the track at the top of the yard, travel counter-clockwise around the layout, and exit to the yard cassette by pulling your train across the river (and straight out the other end of the cassette and on into the yard via the reversing loop, if you want). When starting trains from the yard cassette, you switch the cassette so the train is pointed out of the cassette loco first. When you pull out, you cross the river, and travel right to left (clockwise) across the bottom of the layout and will be able to pull from the main at the top of the plan, straight into the yard without needing a backing movement. This pull in maneuver is likely to yield less derailments than a backing in maneuver. Umm...are you assuming your yard cassette is only accessible from one end? This would drastically limit your operations. If the cassette is accessible from both ends, you can pass through it onto the reversing loop and then onto the 5th classification track that I mentioned yesterday. OR You could pull into the cassette and, the next time you use the cassette, turn it end for end and the train will be able to pull off the cassette, over the river, and then over the layout in a clockwise direction. If you think of the trains traveling left to right across the front of the layout as traveling west to east, then the top of the yard could be considered east and the bottom of the yard is west. Traveling clockwise around the layout is traveling west, and counter-clockwise is traveling east. Going from yard to layout to cassette is traveling east; and going clockwise from cassette to layout to yard is traveling west...so, essentially going from one location to another and then returning to the original location by facing in the opposite direction.
Hi Dave, Thanks for all of the great feedback! You know, for quite awhile I'd always been thinking that I was limited to 1 foot wide on the top of the yard section (from when it was all 1 foot wide with no reverse loop) so I kept avoiding the other entrance option. This has always kept the "back into the yard" system as the only way (other than with the push-pull commuter trains that don't care either way). So, here's what I did: And this idea for a removable cassette that allows for easy storage and reverse operation: This design (if done right) would work for a cassette connection at the bottom left of the yard runaround loop. Just add two switches and a short lead to the edge of the layout. Now this would require some fancy wiring, since it would be a reverse loop of its own, but that's easy enough. Whatcha think?
Matt: Your cassette schematic looks pretty complex, and I'm not sure how you will be using the flex track. I'd guess that the fewer moving parts you have, the better off you'll be. If you have a 6 foot gap to fill, consider making the cassette 4 feet long and permanently attaching the top half of the curve from the mainline to the bridge to the front of the layout, permanently attach the bottom half of the curve from the bridge to a single track cassette parallel to the front of the yard to the yard shelf, and permanently secure the track in the cassette to the floor of the cassette. Use dowels, pins, or adjusting screws to properly align the cassette rails to the tracks/rails on the yard shelf and to align the yard tracks to the main layout tracks...much like turntable tracks line up with roundhouse stall tracks. At the reverse loop end of the cassette, the tracks should align with rails that are permanently attached to the yard shelf, again lining up like turntable and roundhouse stall rails. No moving parts except the rail joiners, if you choose to use them.
Actually, the only moving parts will be the pivots, and the bit of flex track that sits on the pivot itself (so the track will flex with it). Since the connection to the layout will always be in the full pivot-open position, the rails will always line up correctly. This is designed this way to allow connection to both interchanges (the lift bridge and the turnout at the bottom of the main line). As for a complex schematic, I'm not sure how you're seeing it that way. Some simple DPDT switches directly connected to the two wye switches can make connection to the current wired block extremely easy, and a few more switches for controlling sections of the cassette are not much more complicated. NOTE: I shortened it to 4 feet (thanks for the tip!) and also darkened the cassette base to make it more visible (didn't realize it was that light, d'oh!). See above for the change. Hopefully this better illustrates the concept. Not exactly sure I'm following you here. The purpose of the cassette initially is to allow for putting trains on and taking trains off the main rectangle layout (since the yard section will likely have to be built as a later phase). Then, once the yard section is built, I'll have a couple of switches off the bottom left side of the "bulb" (the loop on the yard) that connect to the cassette in the exact same manner. Since I plan to have the layout sections be detachable for portability (to take to shows, move, etc.), I'd like to build the cassette to work on either segment, so if, for example, I'd like to bring only the main layout portion to a show or something, I can bring the cassette with me and use it as I have in the past. I will be using rail joiners, though probably insulated ones with under-track connectors to bridge block power onto the cassette. And again, the moving parts will only be the flex track that sits directly on the pivot so it will bend as necessary. If always used in the same way/position, this should always have my end rail lining up with the connecting track on the layout, however i choose to tie in (be it flush-cut rails or ones that need a little bridging section). As for the length, this would work fine at 4 feet, especially since my trains won't be that long anyway, and that'd probably be even better to make it fit off the bottom of the layout in full-size use mode. The only complicated issue I see here in the newest version of the layout is wiring for the now new reversing loop section that the yard lives in (the angled crossing between the inner and outer track). Thankfully though, since this covers the whole yard, it can be managed. Any suggestions for this are also greatly appreciated. Thanks again Dave! Even though we may not agree on every part, all of your insight is greatly appreciated. :tb-biggrin: -Matt
