Hello, everyone. I'm at a point where I am in a dormant building phase and am contemplating selling my SD&AE layout to raise money for a new Pacific Coast Railway layout.There are many paths that I could take, including: 1) N scale: Modeling the Pacific Coast line as it was proposed to be rebuilt as a standard gauge line in the late '40's. This would allow me to use some ex-SD&AE steamers to run the railroad and use n scale goodies. 2) TTn3: modelling 1:120 proportion narrow gauge on N scale track & mechanisms. Requires a lot of scratchbuilding, which I would be willing and am able to do. N scale mechs are cheap and readily available, and I've already started work on a PCRy #106. 3) Nn3, My newly considered option: I can again reuse my N scale steamers on a standarg gauge SP interchange, plus all the other benefits of N scale. I'd really like to try Nn3 if I can, but avaliability and prices of z scale mechs are starting to push me away from Nn3. Any advice on Nn3? Which would you pick of these 3?
Well, since you asked, I think I'd stay away from TTn3, only because nearly everything would have to be scratchbuilt. How about N, with an Nn3 branch? You would then have the advantages of being able to buy and kitbash a lot more, and have a better scenery to railroad ratio. With an Nn3 branch, you would, at least in theory, only need a couple of locomotives and a double handful of cars to operate it. You would also be able to build as you wanted to, what you wanted to. You can also do some research and see if there was a facility to swap trucks from standard gauge rolling stock so it could be delivered to customers on the narrow-gauge portion. That would certainly add to your layout.
Well, I'm up to the challenge of scratchbuilding (I planned on scratchbuilding all buildings & a lot of rolling stack, anyway.) I'm able to do it and actually prefer it to kitbashing for some reason. (wierd, right?) I guess I always had trouble cutting and filing pre-made stuff and getting it to fit back together again. With scratchbuilding, I can start with a blank slate...of styrene.
You need to talk to the guys and gals at the Santa Maria Railway Museum, Santa Maria, CA.. Seems to me, regarding my last visit, there was a group wanting to do the same thing. In HO and HON3. You might be able to glean some good ideas and prototype information.
Is there aything stopping you from doing a modeled massive change of gauge? Much of the early DRGW started Narrow gauge before widening into the mianline that bought out SP, What if the PCRY was in a similar boat, that they started Narrow, and discovered that if they wanted a better chance to survive, even if it meant a future buyout, that they needed to widen the gauge? (being bought out by SP in the future means that yoyr crew and equipment has the possibility of soldiering on under the new name versus being canned, or scrapped and turned into cans.) You could do dual-gauge track, ditch a larger SP interchnge for something smaller and give more room for the PCRY over the SP while still using SP engines at least part way, and still get the pleasure out of narrow gauge. Pick a year, and say "...The PCRY soon discovered that little interest existed in sustaining a railroad of offending guage by a larger parent. In order to keep up with the SP and her subsidiaries and even be able to possibly become one themselves, as well as serve their own customers, they felt the need to widen to the standard gauge. The project however, would take time and high expenses, and so began in stages. By 19XX the PCRY managed to widen their tracks from the SP to X (large-ish town). Much of the line still needed to be done, but the bulk of major interchange including team-track service could be done faster by not needing to change freight cars or their trucks (common practice to hoist the car, remove one gauge's wheelset and slap the other set underneath, instant narrowgauge boxcar) to the new gauge." (Yes, I did try to word that like a historical passage. ) Of course, I know lnothing about population locations along he PCRY, or how much proto-lancing you want to do.
Modeling the PC as standard gauge is one of my 3 options and actually this gauge-widening almost did happen in real life: The Pacific Coast Narrow Gauge Railway was abandoned in 1942, but the Port San Luis Transportation Company still operated the machine shop & warehouses in the San Luis Obispo Yard, now lacking track. They actually proposed to rebuild the line as a standard gauge! (Of course, it couldn't get enough funding) but this Pacific Coast Standard Gauge Railway is high on my considerations. But then again, so is TTn3. I refurbished my scratchbuilt PC caboose and I'm always thinking of sticking with TTn3. I would like to have narrow gaug if I can. But then again again, I have some great N scale SP steamers that I also worked hard on and are almost factory fresh (from the Tom Locomotive Works, builder #'s 1 & 2) But then--AAAAAGH! I CAN'T DECIDE!!! arghh::tb-mad::mhissyfit::tb-wackya crowd of smileys shares in my pain)
We've all had similar situations. My advice is to take a step back, look at the big picture. N Scale is a mainstream scale with tremendous popularity and availability. Nn3 is limited, but uses many materials from the mainstream scales. N Scale sized equipment on Z Scale sized track, yes? It also appears the general interest level in Nn3 is on a skyrocket right now. I wouldn't be surprised to see some more manufacturered Nn3 items show up. TTn3?, unfortunately, there's not that much support for this one out there. :/ Now, join those facts with your desires. Yes, you said you enjoy scratch building and kitbashing, but remember, that brings a lot of challenges. I'm not saying challenges are bad, but sometimes you'll want a loophole to get around the challenge momentarily so you can see the big picture. What happens if you cant get that TTn3 stuff you build to track right, or some other unknown problem? Will you have anything else TTn3 that you can run which will allow you to say, "Oh yeah, that's why I'm doing this." Also, (and this is probably the most important), with your age, I recommend taking the route that allows you many options so you can afford to make mistakes. If you go with N and the Nn3 branch line, you can scratchbuild and kitbash to your hearts content, and if something fails, you'll have manufacturered options to fill in the blanks. Unfortunately, if something goes wrong with TTn3, it sounds like that would be losing the prize bull. I say play it safe and have fun! Id stick with N Scale (and even I have an ongoing promise that if I ever find a Nn3 K-27 available in good working condition (and I had won the lottery the day before) Thunder Ridge is going to instantly become dual guage.) And hey, later on in life, when your coasting through the career and have a grand basement to fill, that's when you think back and say, "Oh yeah! TTn3!", then jump right in.
I've actually done quite a bit of TTn3 in the past (both scratchbuilt cars I've pictured here are two that I've salvaged from the junkbox) and they track as well as any n scale, for they use N scale trucks and bolster pins on flat, standardized bases--essentially, all rolling stock I made started as a flatcar, was tested for running quality, coupler height, and then got a body built for it. If I do dive into TTn3--which I kind of already have:tb-wink:--I would be confident of its running quality. I've seen other TTn3 and they haven't had running problems with scratchbuilt cars, either. Also, a good philosophy in model railroading is to not back away from challenges or find loopholes if you can. Any screw ups are part of the process. Example: one may discover that if they got glue in here or cut this part there that they just ruined a locomotive. Then you learn and start over. At some point in the last year, I believed that a kitbashed SP tenwheeler, scratchbuilt Jacumba depot, and TTn3 were impossible. I have all three now.
Yes, that's a great philosophy for anything in life. But nonetheless, its always wise to have contingencies. Obviously your skills with scratch building are already pretty solid, so if anyone could pull it of, it would be you. But again, I myself would take the safe road until I had a better grip on the other variables of the hobby (funds, space, time). Then, by the time I had space, time, money, I can dive in to other aspects of the hobby, yet still save the previous layouts and equipment for those days you wish to reminisce, instead of having to sell everything in order to start over. But yeah, just some brain food to chew on. Regardless of your decision, that mail car looks great! Where did you get the trucks for it? I hope they're not the Bachmann trucks that come with their "Old Timer's" passenger cars, because those are the trucks I'm hoping to replace.
Maybe in order to decide, you'll have to do a little figuring. What do you like about TTn3? What do you dislike about TTn3? What do you like and dislike about N? What do you like and dislike about Nn3? Write each thing down on a list and compare them. Do you like the larger size of TT? Do you like the smaller size of Nn3? Do you hate the "fussiness" of Nn3? Do you hate the unavailability of TT products? I think after you do this, and take some time refining your lists, the answer will reveal itself to you.
I "stole" them from a wheels of time harriman coach. I still have the bolster pins for the harriman unless I change my mind and go back to N!
Too expensive for my taste. A blackstone k-27 is over $300. A kitbashed N or TTn3 engine is less than $100. If it was cheaper I'd have switched years ago.
Guess I'm puttin' the trucks back under the harriman coach. BNSF971, OK, here goes... Here's my list: (Nn3 is definitely out; never mind that) General requirements for both: For either TTn3 or N, all buildings & many freight cars will be scratchbuilt (for authenticity), and space & money will be a premium. I would like to use as much as i have already. TTn3: pros:cheap, narrow gauge, 100% accurate to the PC, n scale reliability, close engines for kitbashing, decent size, well within my building ability. cons: needs much more funding to get locomotives, hard to find cars or people. N: pros: equally cheap, many cars & people, SMALLER, plausible "standard-gauge rebuilt compromise", ready-made doors, windows, & architectural pieces, can get my money's worth of my SD&AE steamers, can even make a couple "crummys" of PC cabooses 2 & 3 in N scale. cons: ... ...bah, you got me N scale it is! Mark was right. I was wrong. I love N scale. N scale good. TTn3=wasted SP tenwheeler. No tenwheeler=sad.
N scale crummies. Here's my idea for some N scale Pacific Coast cabooses--bashed from the micro trains wood caboose--that are very similar to the real PC cabooses 2 & 3. I'll just say these were crummies mounted on standard gauge trucks. Their dimensions are almost identical to the MT caboose. Both are 34' long, and the MT caboose is only a foot wider.:tb-biggrin:
Well, you did look at it all logically. If your choice is N, that's great. If not, that's all good, too! Boxcab E50
You must decide to choice between: A) being a jack of all trades and a master of none B) doing one scale and road well C) a mix of the two leading to results that are less than the above I use a few rules of thumb: -90% of my cash and time must go towards my primary objectives (DSP&P and Oahu Railway in On3). -I have friends that gave me hell when I chose to give the Oahu Railway to "primary" status...but I explained to them solid reasons and they approved the move. Scratchbuilding everything is fine. It isn't as bad as most people think...you jump in, make some mistakes, and before long you are fine. If you constantly jump back and forth between scales/gauges/prototypes, you'll never get very far. Make a decision now for something that'll work in the long run. Here's my rational...as it may help you... My prototypes: The South Park had a variety of beautiful 4-4-0s, 2-6-0s, 2-8-0s, 2-6-6ts, and 2-8-6ts (plus the sister CC had 0-4-0s and 0-6-0(t)s). The South Park had a roster of passenger cars which provided a nice variety in designs by various builders and the freight cars were of several different classes (26', 27', and 30'...plus 23' and 24' cars from the CC). The scenery was spectacular and quadruple headers were common. Like most NG roads, my target time/place had only a handfull of trains per day plus Link & Pin couplers which makes it less than ideal for operations. It is, with the colorful equipment and breathtaking scenery, second to none as a prototype for watching and general running. The Oahu Railway was quite unlike other NG roads. It actually had business in the 1940s! It had heavy industrial trackage with a large, modern yards switched by 0-6-0s and diesels (I won't model them), plus a mix of 4-6-0s, 2-8-0s, 2-8-2s, shays, and 4-4-0s for the main and branch lines. The branch had trestles and steep grades...arid scenery. The coast line had beautiful mountains and cliffs along with clear blue water. The variety of business was tremendous: cattle, fruits, sugar, military hardware, ammunition, troops, commuters, railroad guns, coral, gravel, oil, and machinery. With 50 scheduled trains per day and upwards of 150 specials, action was not in short supply. I'm unaware of a better NG prototype to keep 10-15 operators busy. Scale: -Nn3 is really nice for what you can fit into a space, but I find the concessions in detail and, likely, in operations to prevent me from really going this route. I can't see this being a good choice thirty years from now when I can no longer see it or work on it. -Like Nn3, I find HOn3 to be too small. I don't like how the mechanisms look...too many detail concessions for my taste...and it is notoriously rough for operations. I admire what other people have (and continue to) accomplish, but I fear that'll find myself uncomfortable with the size in the long run. The prices are definitely attractive, and I love what Blackstone has done for it. I'll continue to dabble in it for possible use in modular HO. Sn3: What a great size! It's the perfect size! Except, acquiring the necessary locomotives and mechanisms is absurdly expensive or impossible. It is large enough to get the level of detail I like, but the limitations in mechanisms/locomotives really detract from it. I will have dozens of locomotives...and so it just makes more sense to me to spend the additional $$$ on a larger house instead. This scale is great for the WP&Y, SPng, D&RGW, RGS, and MAYBE the C&S or a very expensive DSP&P... On3: A bit large...and that's the only downside! The existing On3 offerings allow me to be lazy and use commercial detail parts, kits, or locomotives (should it interest me). I picked up a PCM Goose with LokSound for $66. I also knabbed a brass mogul and 4-4-0 for $220 and $140 respectively (the 4-4-0 needs a little work). The larger size is the perfect compromise between the strength and thickness of the construction materials (thin enough to easily cut/file but thick enough to be strong). Bachmann's On30 locomotives are easy to regauge, and so I can get cheap mechanisms for the Oahu Railway 2-8-0s and 0-6-0s (with major surgery)...and starting points for the South Park moguls. The MMI locomotives provide the shays and a base for the 2-8-2s. The existing C-16 parts/kits are great starting points for the South Park 2-8-0s. Putting it together, I just simply need to scratch build everyone of a couple hundred cars for the Oahu railway plus bash/scratchbuild around 18 locomotives. The South Park needs me to scratch build around 60 cars plus about 8 locomotives. Since I'm 27, I've got some time to do it...and skills with resin casting which go a long way towards building of the fleet... Here's some of what I'm doing to accomplish my goals: I scratch build masters like this: And then produce a bunch of duplicates: Of unique cars, I just build them in styrene: And I look for less than perfect models to spiff up: That mogul was painted flat black and lettered Oxan Hill #71...which helped me get her for a nice price...she's now painted accurately That's my approach. I hope that you can see how my thoughts compare with your thoughts. Obviously, my tastes and skill set are different from yours...but perhaps it can help you flesh out your goals...and how best to achieve them: TTn3 for the next 5 years...Fn3 with a 30 year goal...whatever. You're young like me, and so don't forget that your income and space will increase over time (hopefully they'll increase faster than your dexterity and eyesight will decrease!). A little bit of planning and sacrifice now can put you in a nice position a few years down the road...regardless as to your scale or prototype. Food for thought: In HOn3, the MDC 2-8-0 provides a largely correct mechanism for the PCRy 2-8-0s. You can also re-gauge N-scale turnouts or handlay to get cheaper track. The Pacific Coast 4-6-0s (one of which went to the OR&L!) are likely available as SPng #18... Good luck with your decision, Michael
