Hey guys,I am planning my BIG WINTER PROJECT(say it with a booming,echoing voice). In my constant search for more space for my N scale Union Pacific layout,I'm planning to double deck.I model the modern day,and envision a branch that leaves the main at a small(2 or 3track)interchange yard,goes up the heilix and switches the industries up top. When i built the original layout,I didn't allow for much switching or staging.After 5 years of watching the trains go 'round n 'round,I put some tracks behind the backdrop for staging.Not ideal,but it works.On the top level,i plan a narrow shelf with some (yet to be determined)industries and then a staging yard. Now my problem.The place i want to put the heilix is a 3 x 5.5 foot rectangle.Do you think this is enough room for a heilix and a track for continuous running.I expect fairly short trains(20cars?)but am worried the grades would be too steep for a couple of SD 40's or GP's.I am also worried about the cars stringing themselves out toward the center of the curve and a quick death on a thinly carpeted concrete floor.I know this would be so much easier if i had a picture or a drawing,but i don't.Does anyone know of a web site that may help,or can anyone share their expiriences or opinions?Any advice would be welcomed.
The area you have for the helix should be of sufficient size for nscale.If you are worried about the cars pulling to the inside and falling off the world you could put a retaining wall (for lack of a better name).This could be lexan,plexglass,or maybe just plain styrene.It doesn't need to be very tall.Just make it tall enough that the cars can not fall completely on to their sides.(ie flat)
I figure you can gain 3" per turn at 1 3/4% grade. (36" x3.2 {close enough}=115" plus 30" straight run each side = 175" 3"/175"= 1.71% I model in HO, what height do you need for clearance in N? 2"? If 2" gain is sufficient, grade will be 1.14%. Wait a minute. Let's say you need 1 1/2" clearance and use 3/4" roadbed, so you need to rise 2 1/4" per turn. Now you are at 1.29%. I built my HO helix with 3/4" plywood. I routed each end of a 90 degree section of the curve on opposite sides (top and bottom) so i could screw them together without a splice plate(to eliminate additional clearance requirements) I made the roadbed wide enough to seperate the turns with notches sawed in 2x2's at the appropriate places. Sorry I can't provide a picture. Hope this helps. Gary
You might want to consider a "Nolix." This is a helix in function (raise trains to upper level), but not in design (a giant slinky that is disguised usually as a mountain). In the area you have discribed, you could have two small mountains that the train would go around in many configurations. The purpose of a nolix is to allow the trains greater visibility, without the great disappearing act. You don't say how large your room is, but with a helix, the train could be gone for longer than it runs on the rest of the layout if your room is smaller. A nolix is basicly using a mountainous area that you use to keep as much of the track as visible as possible to avoid the great disappearing act. You might have the track go all around the two mountains the first pass, then criss cross like a figure 8 in the second pass, all the time gaining elevation.
At first I was concerned by the trains being out of site,but I figure I only need 3 or 4 turns to achieve the height I want and remember,this will just be a branch line and the hidden area can represent a few miles travel before the train reaches the town.I am not crazy about having the train visably stacked on top of itself,However,I haven't made any firm decisions yet,just slowly trying to absorb enough info and expiriences(from Train Board of course) to feel like I can begin removing the old scenery and start cutting wood.
I've been contemplating building a helix on my "dream"layout, but I hate the idea of taking up all that space with a "merry-go-round". I've pretty much settled on the idea of climbing up a ridge and then mountain, circling around and climbing up my back wall to get up to the upper level. I'll slightly landscape the incline up the wall so as to not "waste" all that track and allow it to have some of the "traveling across the land" feeling from one layout to another. I hope this gives you another idea on how to climb between levels while not running around in circles... Mark [ 15 October 2001: Message edited by: Mark_Athay ]</p>
You might be surprised how long a couple of times around can feel like. I run trains at a friends home with a helix that is only 1 1/2 times around, and many of us have experienced all of the following: 1) Is the train still running, are its wheels spinning (and the search begins)? 2) Gone for quick drink while train in the helix, only to forget and start talking to some one, while train is still running down the mainline. 3) Become bored waiting for train and increased throttle, only to have it emerged at warp speeds. By the way, my buddy is building a helix with 6 turns in it, in addition to the helix he already has. In my opinion, he is going to regret it big time, the train is going to disappear, for what will feel like forever. I don't blame you for not wanting to try a "nolix" because the literature is very short on any examples. The only one I know of is one of the issues in MRP or GMR (I can't remember which one) but Rob (Yankinoz) knows which issue. In essense you would be inventing your own design. But why not try in on paper and see if you can come up with something you like. Remember: 1) You can have sidings and small industry in the nolix area. 2) You can have a smaller helix to raise it a bit, then move it back out into the open (in Canada, for example: the Spiral tunnels in British Columbia). 3) you can use a figure 8 to highlight bridges in the center. 4) Again, in British Columbia along the Fraser and Thompson Canyon, the two companies tracks (CP and CN) are divided by a river, so you could quite prototypically have two run arounds divided by a river in a mountainous region and still be able to ward of the prototypical cops. 5) Again in the front area, if a location is looking to spaggehtti trackish, then throw in a snow shed to block one level from another. I have a slightly larger area than you for a nolix and I am raising the elevation 20 inches (50 Centimetres). Using the lazy formula of 2 inches to every 8 feet (this gives a grade of around 2.1 or slightly less), I will need 80 feet of track. This means without any creativity, I will have two run my trains around the mountains three times. I think it will be easy to hide parts of the track, giving an illusion of two tracks (in a canyon). Why not play with the concept on paper, and see if you can come up with something you like. If not, throw the paper out, and you haven't ruined anything. Cheers,
Two of Rick's three points are valid and have been mentioned in the hobby press for some time now. (#2 may be unique!) My railroad consists of two levels, each level is a different railroad, the bottom level is continuous run, the top point to loop. Trains on the top level come from hidden staging in another room, run the length of the mainline to a yard, beyond which is the helix. Thru freights have power switched and continue down the helix to loop staging. They are never seen again till they return from staging. The helix also serves as an interchange track, connecting to the bottom level road. The point is that the trackage on the helix is not used to lengthen a mainline run, if it were, I would find the disappearance disturbing. Back to the two valid points. If you are not able to see your train, you will definately experience the urge to make it go faster. Mine is not yet scenicked, so for now I do not have that problem. I have been using it for several months now, and have become comfortable that the trains won't stall, and that I should just leave the throttle as it was. When I see the headlight coming out from under Rt.23 (the entrance from the helix to the interchange)I get the same feeling I get when I go railfanning. So, perhaps if you change your mindset from "engineer" to "railfan" while the train is on the helix you will find the wait more bearable. Just don't go for a drink while you're waiting, the consequences could be worse than just missing a photo op! Gary
hummm......Thinking again......I like the idea of having a siding in the heilix,basically the outer loop could be the "up" track and the inner track could be the "down" track.I didn't plan to hide the heilix behind a mountain,maybe a low back drop though,but it would look pretty cool as a mountain,perhaps if I exposed the middle level....the train would come out a tunnel,cross a low curving bridge or some other scenic element and duck back into another tunnel or snow shed.Does anyone have pics of there heilixes or no-lixs?
If I can forget about a train running in a 1 1/2 helix, you can imagine my fear with a 6 turn helix, Gary. What happens is I go for quick fill up on my pop, and some ones asks or says something interesting. Then I start gabbing and before you know it, a voice comes booming out of the train room: "Who's running this train?" Then I rush back in looking and feeling very sheepish. Danger Boy, If you have back issues, or some one is reading this, it was an article about a John Armstrong design that was never built around the mythical Athabasca Railroad. In this article, written by the modeler, commenting on what it was like to work with John Armstrong, he gave instructions to John that he didn't want a helix. John created a design with track running in the mountains gaining elevation and jokingly christened it a "nolix." I use this word regulary, but almost no one on the planet knows what I am talking about. So if you go asking a model railroad friend to help you with the nolix, he won't have a clue as to what you are talking about. I have seen only two seperate layouts with a "nolix:" the one in MR I have mentioned above, and another one posted on the net, but I can't remember where. I can appreciate that you want to see a picture of one, but what I discovered is that each area a person is working with is different in size and design than another person's, more so than a traditional helix design. So that ultimately you have to invent your own. The best way to approach it psychologically is to pretend your nolix layout is somehow seperate from the rest. In actual fact, I have my double deck benchwork up, except for the nolix area. In my head I am building three layouts. First, the bottom benchwork and track and backdrop, then the nolix area with track and backdrop, then the upper benchwork with track and backdrop. I am treating the nolix as a seperate layout that happens to gain elevation. When you build the mountains, remember you will have to leave the back half of the mountain open (so you are building only half a mountain) so you can access the track in the back, by the wall. You can make one mountain larger than the other (also visually more interesting) and have a one turn helix in the larger mountain, inside it, just to add some interest, and eat track feet, so that less track is visible. The space I am using is L shaped, however the shape that John Armstrong used was a long rectangle with a mountain region. On the first track around the mountains, you can leave it relatively plain, with maybe just a siding. Then on its second time around, have an industry, served by a siding, that will force your eyes to the second level, and not the first. Remember, treat it as a seperate layout that happens to have to gain in elevation, and have fun with the design. I suspect there are even better ideas out there, but they will be scarce compared to those who have a helix. In most layouts, a compromise has to be reached. Each choses the compromises he is willing to live with. For me, the most compelling aspect of a layout is the "wow" factor. If I see your layout, will I go "wow" inside, and silently lust after it? This is mostly a visual thing. Myself personally, I have found that I am willing to forgive a layout of its sins, if it makes me go "WOW!" In the nolix area, I am willing to live with a bit of spaggehti tracks, if I can make you - hopefully - go "Wow!" I have recently seen a layout that operationally was excellent, but it was visually disappointing. For me, I didn't care that it was an excellent layout to run, I was disappointed with the overall construction of it - and this layout has been around for a long time, built by some very experienced people. So in my mind, the challenge of a "nolix" is to make it visually exciting, enough so that you forget that the track maybe is a bit excessive for the area. I would recommend that the nolix is the first area where you get compulsively detailed, as the eye will naturally gravitate to it, since it will be the largest structure on your layout.
I remember when I was a kid seeing my relatives layout where he had to gain enough elevation to go from a 4' to 4 1/2' working height to a trestle high enough to make a duck-under little more than a duck of the head. He had the track on a 2 - 4% grade and then it ducked into a tunnel in a mountan where the helix was located and it crossed upward on itself about 5 or 6 times. It was all nestled inside of the Mtns but occasionally the train would appear winding its way up the side of the mountain and then a little further up crossing a bridge and disapearing back into the mountain. I actually saw a picture take of a real train on a helix where it was crossing under itself like a figure 8...it was really cool.
Rick, Sounds like a nolix consumes considerable space. Can be a scenic advantage for sure on a railroad located in mountanous terrain and with the room for it. Perhaps the same concept being used by Tony Koester on his new Nickle Plate road. He has a long distance to use to gain elevation and needs it because his is a relatively flat prototype. A helix, along with previously mentioned shortcomings, takes up a fair amount of space itself, but less than a nolix, I assume. My helix is located at the end of a peninsula, and is open at the aisle end. The lower level backdrop runs down the middle of the peninsula, and splits at the helix, something like this: O>---- With layout area 19'x25', the 5 square feet dedicated to the helix is justified (to me anyway) by doubling the area available. For a small room, say 10x12, the helix would consume to large a proportion of the available space to justify itself. I model northeast N.J. and N.Y. along the Hudson, so most of my scenes are level (and linear) so the nolix wouldn't work for me. And yes, I can see your apprehension of a 6 turn helix. A suggestion: Place a refrigerator next to the helix! That's where my "recreational use" fridge is. Gary
O.K., Before someone points out that I'm mathmatically challanged, in the above post I mean a 5 foot square area, not 5 square feet. Gary
Ok - Rick - I'm here to back you up. Armstrong coined Nolix in MRP '98 I think - could have been '99 - anyway - it does take up more space than a helix, but the bonus is the train is visable for more time. Track Planning for Realistic Operation has an illustration of the concept as well, but this was before he called it 'nolix' (fig 7-10)
I have all the mrp's so I will look up the armstrong article.If I do build a conventional heilix,I will keep the center open so I can get in there to clean track and fix any problems.I also plan to get the upper level in place before I build the heilix so I can adjust the height.The top level will be a narrow shelf maybe 1.5 to 2 feet wide.We'll see I don't want to block out the lower level.
Gary, The amount of room consumed is different with a nolix versus a helix, I don't know if it is "more;" but maybe. As you have experienced I'm sure, most helix's are round "mountains" with maybe an open area to see some of the train pass through. I am doing an N scale layout in a 7 by 13 ft room. However half way down 13 foot lenght the wall widens another two and a half feet. Inset in this area is an L shaped nolix (or there will be). But visually, it should be (if my modeling talents are up to it) more appealing that a traditional helix. First a traditional helix would impinge on the room both for space and as the big "blob" dominating everything in this small area. This is because helix requirements are almost the same for N scale as HO. We don't need quite the height requirements, but almost. Secondly, the big blob phenomena is eliminated. The helix in my room would have to be by a door, and it would immediately make the room feel claustrophobic. Instead, the nolix will be in the area but stretched out, 6 1/2 feet by 6 1/1 feet by three feet (with the front curving to the contours of the mountains so it doesn't have that rectangular visual boredom). So again when you walk in the door, you won't immediately be rubbing shoulders with the one BIG mountain. Instead, the mountains will be smaller and will be inset, to allow the room to feel more open. I think the critical question is: what kind of space are you willing to live with. If you have a large layout, the helix won't dominate it as much, or be hidden. For us poorer slobs with smaller rooms - with champagne tastes, but beer budgets - I am suggesting that a nolix, might "fit" better, allowing the room to feel larger than the claustrophobic reality it already is anyway. My layout is in the study, we have no basement here.
Hi Rick, Given the space you have, it sounds like you have the ideal approach in mind. As I said, a smaller space really can't justify the use of a relatively large area for a helix. The nolix certainly has better scenic possibilities (the helix basically has none). I love to see trains in mountain settings, and have some on my layout, the cliffs along the Hudson. But my track is pretty much level in all visable sections. "The water level route" and all. I gave up 5x5' area for helix use, but gained an upper level 10 times that size, so feel it was a good use of space. Mine, by the way, is not a mountain. It is behind a backdrop, and open on the end of the aisle's peninsula. Main drawback here is you come down the basement stairs and you see... a helix, with the railroad beyond. On top, a turntable and roundhouse and svc facilities reside within the helix. I can pop up inside the helix if something derails. Most importantly, I can open the fridge and pop open a beer with one hand while holding my throttle in the other! Sorry, just having fun. Gary
Have you considered the idea of not making the Helix round? N-SCALE MAGAZINE had a very through article about a RECTANGULAR Helix. This was a year or two ago. I don't have the issue handy or I would give the month and year of it. In the article the builder had passing tracks, a reverse loop, and several entry/exit points on his helix. It showed how the helix was built, grades figured, and design ideas were mentioned. This article was aimed towards N-Scale, but could be used on any scale with some measurement changes. Have you considered one of those new small video cameras for looking inside the helix, after scenery has been applied, to watch the trains moving up and down the grade. I am in the process of designing two rectangular helix's and plan to use two small pocket, black & white video cameras to monitor train speed and track position. The price of these camera have come a lot in the past year or two. You might be able to find some old security cameras that would do the job. I got a pair of old Panasonic video cameras, two small monitors, and a lot a cable at a auction for under $35.00. These will do the job just fine. If not video cameras, there are several simple electronis circuits for train detection that will turn on a light or LED on the control panel. This would let you know when a train has reached a certain point on the helix. These circuit designs are available any number of places, several designs have been in MODEL RAILROADER MAGAZINE over the years. Like I have said before don't get all hung up on the minimum radius idea. Use as big of a radius as you can everwhere. Including the helix. Make sure you have access into the helix. You will have bugs to be worked out of it and you will need to be able to get to the inside of the helix. I don't mean by just reaching across the layout either. Sooner or later you will have to be able to get inside, and a little foresight on access area will save your bacon! Trust me on this! Good luck, take your time, and remember the layout is never finished.
