I am at the very beginning of the thought process. I have had the urge to build another layout. It has been years and years since I had trains running. Last one I had was a 12'x12" "C" shaped in the garage. I had it setup so I could lift it up out of the way, fold the legs up. One of the pulley brackets failed and it all came down in a heap. Almost total loss. I have been looking at a spot inside the back bed room, AKA office, computer room. I can take over a space, "C" shape again, top would be 5 feet from the back wall to the end, 11.5 feet along the back wall, then the bottom part would be 6 feet out from the wall. I have been looking at 2' feet wide, can increase to 3 feet at the most. I have drawn a couple ideas up, using the free Atlas, I run out of pieces way to soon to see much of anything. I am more interested in letting them run around while I work on the layout listening to the clickety clack of the wheels. Was trying for a 3 times around design. I am not much for operations. Switching, building trains to send out. I like to watch them leave the yard, go around for a while and switch the train out for another. Not looking at a set era, location would be south west, Imperial valley up through Barstow into the mountains around Big Bear. I have spent the last month going back and forth, HO, N, HO, N, HO, HO, N, N, N Ho, N, HO, N. I have a lot more things on hand in HO than I do in N scale. I have a dozen Atlas code 80 turn outs, 10 or so pieces of flex track, 1 "OLD" Life Like E8/E9., Bachmann 2-6-0. I have been pouring over plans to see if I could fold, split, bend and twist them into somthing I liked. As I am horrible at doing the design work. I have looked at countless track plans that are 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 ovals inside of ovals. Couple of cross over turn outs, yard in the middle. Looked at one, it was 3'x26' double track oval. Lots of switch and operating sidings and such. Was a fantastic operator layout, but not so much for the one who wants to watch the train go through the scenery. It was all flat not even 1 bridge. It was all about the operations. Watching videos on Atlas track software and scarm, Atlas is scarm with less add ins and features. Was thinking of getting scarm to see if I could come up with something. Just not sure I would get $40.00 worth of good out of it when I can use pencil, paper, compass to draw it out? Also looking for a bit of motivation, yes it can be done and all that. It will take a bit to reclaim the space before I could start building the bench work. Would give time to collect more track and a few loco's and cars. Thanks. Buzz.
Buzz, N scale let me do a lot more in less space. Equipment to scenery ratio is another plus. If you stay with HO, out and back may be best option. You have access to a lot of talent for design on this forum. I am sure you will come up with what works. As it looks like you have not mentioned Z scale, I take it that would be too small for you. Good luck.
Might be hard to have a loop or multiple with that width with HO. On the verge of the minimum you would want for N unless you have more width than that at the end of both the layout legs. You have some HO equipment but you are going to have so much more into this with your time and expenses I wouldn't let what you have dictate what you want to do. I'm partial to N myself and feel if you want to run trains they can be longer and appear to be traveling further in N. Whichever, have fun, and maybe go with the pen and pencil for a bit before deciding on software. I use free Sketchup Make myself for layout planning and like it. Sumner
If you are going for a passive, railfan-style layout where the focus is more of watching (or hearing) the train rather than switching or operation, you will be pressed to make complete turns in the 2-3 foot depth, especially with long locomotives like an E unit. With a 3 foot depth, you are limited to 15 or 18" radius. Potentially, an out-and-back with an auto reversing unit may allow trains to operate automatically without having to go in a circle. Modeling streetcars or interurbans would allow you to keep HO scale and get tighter curves. Many streetcar models can make 8" radius turns. That would fit on a 2' deep layout. Since you are looking for overlapping loops, you will pretty much be limited to N scale in a 2 foot deep space. A spaghetti bowl style layout will not be very easy to make in the space in HO scale. What do you want to get out of the layout? Scratchbuilding cars or structures? Scenic landscapes? HO makes building models easier since it is bigger, but scenery is more attainable in N because the trains are smaller in proportion to the layout space.
I use XTrackCAD for layout design, which is free. I like it a lot, but then I haven't tried any others either. I use N-scale Kato Unitrack sectional track, so I don't know how well it handles flex track.
I would say I have settled on N scale as there is no way to fit much of an HO in the limited space. I am getting rid of a bunch of old desktops, switches, routers, patch panels I used to use for work and education. Total network design and building nut. So I won't be needing them any more, so I figure I would go from hard, oppressive, brutal labor to total enjoyment. Turn it from Dante's Inferno to Alice in Wonder land. In looking at the room, it is 11.5'x11.5' with a 2 1/1 foot closet depth, so 13.5 feet long back wall. I am taking over the closet, wall, and 1/3 of the center wall. I might be able to extend the top of the "C" by another couple of feet? So the top part of the squared off C would be 7- feet. Back wall is 11.5 feet plus the 2 1/1 feet into the closet. Bottom of the C would be the length of the closet, 6 feet. In shopping, have been shopping for a month now. Seems track is out fo stock at a lot of places. I ran by my local train shop, Reed's in La Mesa Ca. Bought a couple Atlas code 80 left and right turn outs and 5 flex track. His box of track was pretty empty. I bought all but 1 each of the turn outs. I am looking on flea bay, (25) pieces of code 80 flex for $107 to the door. Almost all of the loco's I like, mostly Southern Pacific Geep's, GP-35, GP-38 are my favorite ones are all pre order. I did fins a ATSFE GP35, DC and a Digitrax decoder in stock, have not pulled the triger for the online stuff yet. Still thinking. "Since you are looking for overlapping loops, you will pretty much be limited to N scale in a 2 foot deep space. A spaghetti bowl style layout will not be very easy to make in the space in HO scale." I have to agree with this as my last test of HO was 2007, I bought a Aehtern F59PHI, (3) car set, Sound Trax sound decoder. Running on 18 inch, just did not look right. Yet the lights, sounds, movement, I was blown away. Nothing like the way it responded to my old DC only setup. "What do you want to get out of the layout? Scratch building cars or structures? Scenic landscapes? HO makes building models easier since it is bigger, but scenery is more attainable in N because the trains are smaller in proportion to the layout space." I really enjoy building kits, scratch building. I have been building model planes since I was 6 years old. I have scratch built so many planes my garage looks like a hobby shop. building the buildings is as much as anything. I would rather spend 12 hours a day in my garage, at a work bench than I would siting at the keyboard. I was just getting good at weathering with washes and chalk powder. That of course was 10 plus years ago. I really enjoyed making trees. As I live way past BFE, I have all sort of bushes and plants that make great tree armatures. Add a little pillow stuffing, flat greens, grey's, brown paints, thinned glue, sprinkle with fine turf, super easy, good looking trees. "As it looks like you have not mentioned Z scale, I take it that would be too small for you." I think N scale is as small as my hands will let me go. I used to swing a hammer for a living. I was a steel pin installation specialist. AKA Carpenter. I started framing, then worked up to cabinets, then finished doing stairs and doors. I still fall back on the if it does not fit, hit it harder. That may work great for a house, but these little things, not so much. When I have this tiny thing that is $100.00 an inch or so, be very, VERY gentle. I have thought about building a small, 2x4, 2x6, 3x4, 3x6 N scale layout. I had build plan #17 from 101 plans, the Gorre and Daphetid. I had thought of just get something going, anything to spend some time on. I just thought that building s a small 3x6 would not give me what I want. Yet i have most of what I need to put one of that size together all ready on hand. Of course it would be limited to 3 to 5 cars but that would be OK too. Who knows I might get interested in dispatching, switching, the cars around. Maybe build a small one and add a larger yard and a few more industries? Plan #17 http://singerscrossing.yolasite.com/resources/Gorre & Daphetid.jpg Plan #29 https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-ONPbYIpz...CaXOGZPVA3gN6z-b9QCLcBGAs/s1600/N%26SMGRR.jpg As this is an investment in time, money, energy. I don't want to waste it headed in the wrong direction. I have thought of getting a few kits, as one industry I will have is propane, so I can run tank cars. I could get the Walther's North Island refinery and the Interstate Oil kits. Could also go with the ADM Grain Elevator, New River Mining, plus the Medusa Concrete. The Walther Central Gas and supply would be a perfect one for the idea of having a propane industry. Could build that on the bench, detail it, then add it to the layout when it is ready? I could be enjoying model RR without the RR layout part I am finding a lot of buildings that would fit with the agriculture in the area I will be modeling. Now to order the 500x magnifying lite for my tired old eyes. I will look at xtrackcad. Thanks. Buzz.
Of the two you posted, I prefer #29, but in general I'm a fan of folded dog-bone styles over twice-arounds. They provide more interesting flow, and are easier to implement reversing, if desired.
I have built both in the past. I added 1 foot to widen #29 so I could build a small yard. I built #17 as is for my brother. I had mine for about 2 years, had it mostly covered. About 2 square feet detailed. I had a nice timber trestle in the back. A coal mine at the long siding. As I did not keep it, try to expand it, is the reason I have not broke out the stuff to build a mini layout. I had thought of turning them into 2x5, 2x6, 2x8, 3x6, 3x8. Just did not flip the wig. I have been trying to use xtrackcad. Bit of a learning curve to learn the short cut keys. Takes a lot of effort with the mouse clicks and opening menu's. I have come up with a nice long run. Has places for sidings, industries, town. Now if I could just copy what is in my head and paste it to the monitor. I have work to do on the room. Moving, recycling, selling, tossing all sorts of stuff. Going to take me a while to get that done. So plenty of time to work up a track plan. I pick up a 40 foot girder bridge from Micro engineering to get my modeling "FIX" Will built and paint that to keep my fingers and mind busy. I might order a few larger kits I think I will use on the layout. Give me something to do and keep me focused. Thanks. Buzz.
This is something like what I am looking for. This is N scale with 12" radius curves. Have to work out the elevations and all of that. But this is sort of what I am looking for. Room to add towns, industries, yard and the other fun things. I used the free version of anyrail. Limited to 50 pieces but was able to use mostly flex track.First time something other than a doodle. Thanks. Buzz.
Be careful, planning layouts in an app like XTrackCAD can spin into its own hobby! Sooner or later, I think we're supposed to build one.
Buzz, I think our posts crossed in the ether... But I like the basis of your layout, with a few comments: Are the back corners (left side, lower and upper) in the corners of the room? If so, reaching into them from the front of the layout to correct an issue would be very difficult. More generous radii in the corners would help keep the track reachable. The loop at the top appears to need on the order of a 3% grade (on a 12" radius) in order to pass over itself. The pass-over may need to be moved down a bit to stretch the climb and lower the grade, but that will all get sorted out when you start accounting for terrain/elevation.
Way back when I started learning CAD for model airplanes. I got so caught up that I forgot to build them. So I have not used CAD much in 15 years. Yes I need to mess with the elevations. As the bench is only 30" wide. Should not be to bad to reach into the corner. I do like the idea of larger radii for those areas. Might go up to 18"-20". I have not figured out what is on top, middle yet. Was messing with the 3d and it looked more like a roller coaster as each piece of track needs to be set. This is the first step. In the middle is where I was going to place the yard. Make is work like the top is one town in the mountains, then to the flats and the other town would be up in another mountain range. Could have rock, sand come from one side, delivered to the Medusa concrete kit. Then box cars filled with it to transport it every where. Other mountain could be wood and coal, coal for the power plant, lumber for the mill. Need a river or three for nice bridges, find a place for the town or towns. I could move the cross over all the way down the center of the layout. With this, it could be the highest point on the main line. I made a red line to show what I mean. figure out in the scenery why the track cross that way. First I need to reclaim the wilds of the back room. Get that tamed and ready, then the fun can begin. Thanks. Buzz.
I didn't read every post word for word so go easy on me here... I see that you settled in with N scale, also that you want to railfan your layout more than operate. GREAT IDEA!! It's my favorite thing on a model railroad as well. But there are days that just watching a train go in lazy loops does get boring. What I found was the most enjoyable to watch was passenger trains. The long majestic looking trains (even when there are only a few cars) to me just give a sense of adventure. Where are those people going, what are they doing... stuff like that even in N scale. Also having a train meet another is also interesting, whether it is on a siding or double track. So here is what I have learned in N scale. Tracks are harder to keep clean. Well no not really, they get dirty about the same rate as HO scale but due to the locomotives being smaller, lighter and with sharper diameter wheels less contact area on the rails they are more sensitive to the crud on the tracks. So make sure you can get to every rail, in every tunnel and bridge as rail cleaning cars are not cheap, so consider this when planning tracks and tunnels. Like in any scale the broader the curves the better everything looks. Keep curves as wide as you can for best results. If you are using flex track the movable rail always to the inside and have also found that overlapping onto the next section of track works best to prevent the kink that flex track likes to do when the tracks end in a parallel on a curve. Yes this involves sliding the movable rail out on the second piece and fishing the former's movable rail into the next piece but it not only helps prevent the kink but also is more prototypical as rails are rarely ever even. Breaking off a tie or two will allow the rail joiner to fit then just file down a small groove in the tie to clear the rail joiner and slip it back under the rails when finished and most will never know. Your track plan looks good but consider a siding or maybe a couple industries for those days where you want to run different trains. Its so much better when all you have to do is park a train on a siding and pull out another from a yard or industry to change things up. I know it's not much effort to put 5 to 10 or so cars on the rails but when they are already there its just so much better. Also if they are parked at an industry you can do a few minutes of operations by picking them up and then running the new train. The other parked train could also later drop off it's cars, again just for more interest when railfanning gets boring (if it ever does). I hope this helps with the construction and also the operations of your layout.
A track cleaning car is a must for N scale. I have three truss bridges connected together that is 54 inches long in total and it would be a nightmare to clean if weren't for cleaning car. Joe
Mine was such a PITA to keep clean I removed it and put a plate bridge in its place. Much easier to clean and allows for a better view of my "campers".
I had had full scale life issues. Was laid off, then told they had an opening in another area, so I am now learning a new job. Have not had much mental energy to put into the track plan. I have to add the sidings, where I want the propane distribution, gravel mine, cement plant, town, river(s), industries and all the track they come with. As this is a 3 day weekend, I may get a bit more sleep and see what I can do with the track plan. As I work on it. I may build a little guy to get my "FIX" for building. Have an idea to take over a closet for a 2 1/2x6 foot layout. Was going to use the plan #29 from up top but stretch it to 6 feet. Would give a longer run and might be enough to make a small yard in front. My old layout, I had a box car with a piece of masonite under it dragging the rails. I had 0 trouble any where that car went. I had one on each train that went around. I did have to clean the ends of the yard and sidings as the masonite could not get there. Thanks. Buzz.,
