It's not. There is no part of your life, or mine, which is from birth to death not influenced in some way, by some outside source. It's how you, the individual, chooses decide to adapt those influences to your own best use. Nothing and nobody should define how we each enjoy life- Despite the fact some people feel they should be able to do so. What is your pleasure, isn't necessarily mine. It's my way to keep it simple, which some despise as being naive. Having such people amongst us is sad, but a fact of life. True. But also true is this fits everyone. Perhaps some are better than others. I've yet to meet the perfect communicator, and never will, as no such human exists. Proto-freelance is not more than a slang term in our language. It may actually fit what was done with the V&O, the AM. Does it for myself? All? No. Using on me feels like someone making me a square shape being jammed into a round peg hole. And that sets me off.
It's is slang, but again, it is slang that some set of people...that had a bully pulpit used repeatedly. What is the value of saying: "the way they used the term doesn't fit me, therefore I will use it to mean something different?" That just adds confusion right? Better to just say: I know what it means and I never liked the term. That was my point, you can't really have a personal definition for a slang term. It means whatever the broader community says it means...whether you like it or not. Of course, that in and of itself is a loaded concept. I know the broader community of Trainboard, or at least those that have discussed it in previous times it has come up were either unaware of or had rejected the roots of the term. That is not true across all model railroad forums though nor certainly across the broader perspective of model railroading. Again, I point to the Proto-Freelance SIG on yahoo. That's a whole group of people who use the term as defined to describe themselves. Would you not, by not recognizing the common definition, misunderstand what that group is about? If I say: My railroad is Proto-Freelance. I think it is fair to assume that any group that has been in model railroading for any length of time and has read publications and generally been participatory with others would understand what that term is a short hand for. Yet in this thread that wasn't true. Is it important that that be so? Not really, but again, much like asking Rick about Turnouts, it's a hangup of mine.
Because you can't say that as an absolute. These discussions occur because it isn't graven in stone. It means different things, to different people. And some simply cannot figure out just where are these imaginary boundries. That "broader community" still hasn't defined it in any thorough accuracy. The group cited is a very small segment of the entire hobby. Very small, in fact tiny. Reality is since all model railroads, no matter how well modeled, are fiction, they are all freelance. And since all use some sort equipment copied or patterned from real, (past and present), railroading, they are all proto. The term blankets our whole hobby, not just a part. I don't see any need to even use it.
I don't think the fraction is tiny. I'll be honest, confession time. I've discussed this very topic on a number of other forums and most, even if they don't want to have their modeling buttoned up in a term, fully understand what the term means. I mean, for it to only be a tiny fraction of the population, you'd have to imply that Railroad model Craftsman, Model Railroader and Model Railroad Hobbyist do not reach a large percentage of the MR population. I simply don't believe that. I mean, sure there may be thousands of Lone Wolves out there who have never read an MR ever, but then, those are not likely to be participating much of anywhere nor to question the meaning of a term. They aren't NMRA members, probably don't know what the NMRA is. The term Proto-freelance has no meaning for them, but then neither does freelance itself. So you're already selecting down to a subset of hobbyists that are sufficiently invested in model railroading to follow terms of art for the hobby. This is your original quote that I disagreed with. You implied that there was a universal definition of the term Proto-Freelance and then proposed what you thought it was. My response was: "no, the definition is this, because of these reasons." So even you were proposing that there was a well known definition we just disagreed on what it was. I think it may be fair to let sleeping dogs lie on this discussion. Suffice it to say, that in the title of this thread, Proto-Freelance can be taken to mean "The Model Railroading structure popularized by McClellen and Koester. Or, as someone on another forum recently put it: That was the implication I was going for. The previous couple of pages can now be safely ignored and we can get back to my personal Crisis. Oh wait, we solved that already!
I am talking about those who might believe in that vague outline enough to attempt actually practicing it. Which is indeed a tiny number. How far magazines might reach doesn't matter, as making that trty is a personal choice. Not something a magazine can enact. No. I was complaining about the so-called definition, not proposing one has been accepted. Your "someone" quote comes so much closer to what people should be saying, to be believed. We just aren't going to agree. And I'm going to continue on with my little corner of the hobby as I have now for sixty years.
It's a Switch!!! Or was that Proto-Freelance? It's a "Switch" not a "Turnout". YoHo you ought to know better. Heeheehee. I thought I taught you better then that. What kind of stuff did all those SP railroaders in Northern California teach you? :teeth: Well, on my layout do not walk in and call the ARM "Adustable Routing Mechanism" (courtesy of Inkanneer) a "Turnout". I don't have a Turnout Crew, a Turnout Man, or a Turnout Herder. I have a Switch Crew, who make Switch Moves utilizing a Switch Man and a Switching Herder. Ok the last one is questionable but they do have Herders that direct the switching moves (not turnout moves) in many of the Prototype based Railroad Yards. You just won't find the Rails of the good old USA calling them anything other then a "Switch"...True! I couldn't resist and I won't apologize. See: http://www.trainboard.com/grapevine...7-Railfanning-Yard-Switching-Moves&highlight= So what did you guys decide is there still going to be a beat-em up session about who is right and who is wrong. The great Proto-Freelance debate? For what it's worth. That's what I consider my layout to be. A contradiction in terms for sure. My equipment... I did explain that already, yes? I don't care what you say or do on your layouts. Not my responsibility and not in my job description to worry about yours. On mine? Don't even mess with me.hboy: LOL Unless you want to. Wouldn't be any fun (there it is again...fun) if you didn't. Thanks I needed the laugh.
Well, OK, I'm not sure I even agree that that group is tiny relatively speaking. Proto-Freelance took the hobby by storm in the 70s and 80s. Certainly a fair number of the published layouts utilize it. I'd further argue that the distinction "tiny" may apply to any specific defined subset of model railroading from Prototype to ntrak to freemo and on and on. If that's the argument, then we all best throw our hands in the air and not bother having any sort of formality at all. Which I suspect suits some just fine, but that doesn't change the formality that others use. Nor does it make the terms in that formality any less valid or undermine them.
It's something that seems to come up on here quite a bit. I doubt anyone on here hasn't had some kind of crisis over what to model and how. A lot of us started with toys that only came in certain popular railway paint schemes. We also started with ovals and maybe one or two spurs. As we got older we discovered the hobby through the print media; now the internet. Getting informed would have a huge impact on what you think you like: Historical research, finer looking and running models, realistic scenery and train movements. etc. But it's all still model railroading. So yeah, I would say that ultimately just do what is fun IS the primary goal; whether fun means following a specific prototype from a particular day in time, playing with whatever train strikes your fancy in the moment, or some place in between those extremes. It sounds like you do know what you want out of your layout Yoho, so go for it! And make sure to post up a lot of pictures.
here's my whole take on what is Proto Freelance and what is freelance Real Railroad + Real Location = Prototype Real Railroad + Non Prototype Locations = Proto-Freelanced Real Railroad + Fictitious Locations = Freelanced Fictional Railroad + Real Locations = ProtoFreelance Fictional Railroad + Fictitious Locations = Freelance
I like the categories to a degree, David, but to interject again I'm going to double down on the idea of "proto-freelance" as a sliding scale or range of options with a general comparison to "historical fiction," where real place, persons or events are used but a serious degree of literary license is employed. If I'm not mistaken (which of course I often am) it was Tony Koester who mentioned frequently in his column the notion of keeping a "modeler's license" current, which I think we all do in one form or another.
Personally, I think this whole subject has gone off into the weeds. If I wanted to ponder upon the existentialism of model railroading, I would have stayed awake during Psychology class in college. One can over-think this topic (matter of fact, it has been) and still come up with differing opinions. As for the use of the word "fun". I suggest you read Sam Posey's book "Playing with Trains", in which he covered his own journey in the hobby of model railroading, and also explored how others do the same. All through the book, from Koester's by-the-book prototype operationis to Malcolm Furlow's somewhat-whimsical modeling to even his own layout (plus the sections he had for his kids), you can see varying degrees of fun. If this hobby weren't fun, I'd be doing something else with my time, like knitting. Even Koester stepped out of his tight little box and pondered a 1960s-era Nickel Plate diesel roster- just for fun, you understand. John Allen had a dinosaur doing work on his layout. It's your layout, your approach, your way of enjoying the hobby- just remember, fun is the most important ingredient. Without it, you may as well fill out a W4 form, complete an employment application, and install a time clock so you can punch in & out for another several hours of drudgery.
Time definitely also factors in ie: Modeling a modern day Milwaukee Road in Milwaukee Real Railroad + Real Location + Wrong Era = Proto-Freelanced
In your choices in your topic heading area, you left out "multiple personality disorder".... lol. I'm like you and although I will take inspiration from track design, locations and structures, I have no desire to be historically, graphically correct. I have two decks which will each fly a Canadian flag when I run all CN. On other days I will run only CP in my mythical sub division in British Columbia, on other days the Canadian flags will be replaced by American flags and I"ll run Montana Rail Link. All three of these lines will have interchange with BNSF and UP. One of our very best modeller's locally with an operations layout, award winning certificates around his walls, went free lance as he didn't want rivet counters ruining his experience, so if you are not prototypically specific you take care of one problem with guests. I'll suggest another area you might enjoy modelling, and that is the border area around Emerson Manitoba, a major interchange with CN, CP, SOO, BNSF, etc. Google this area and its corresponding town in the states. This small hole in the wall is the third busiest traffic area with the RR's driving the traffic, big American/Canadian interchange. You could have a run from North Eastern Wisconsin going up there. By the way, I lived in Madison for a couple of years and the North Eastern area is lovely.
Oh man, I almost got sucked into discussing semantics some more. he he he I am stepping away from the keyboard.
