The last time I built this Model Railroad was in 1969-1971. Since then a lot has changed in the electrical department. I have been doing a lot of research so that I do not purchase things that will not be needed to make the layout functional. The revised preliminary Electrical plan shows the parts I currently think are necessary to accomplish my goal of a state of the art functional DCC layout. If you have time, please look this plan over with the idea of correcting any deficiencies you may find. I am concerned about the quantity of reversing boards I have shown. In addition to the Wye, there are two sets of additional rversing tracks (Colored Green) located in the upper and lower turning loops. Will each of these tracks need it's own reversing board? I will figure out just where the electrical isolation blocks need to be later. Click for Full Size Note: Revised Plan Thanks for your help. GM [ February 09, 2006, 04:18 PM: Message edited by: GM ]
Each reverse loop, wye or turntable needs it's own reverse loop module. I have four reversing loops and one turntable on the JJJ&E. Each has it's own reverse loop module/switch. If two reverse loops share one module, you're going to run into a problem with a short circuit. Stay cool and run steam.....
Bob Does that mean that I need to add two more boards to the plan? One more for the hidden track in the Summit tunnel, and another in the LA Local turning loop? GM [ February 09, 2006, 01:35 PM: Message edited by: GM ]
GM: If you have four reversing loops, you need four boards/reverse loop modules/switches. Each reversing loop needs to be controlled by an individual reverse loop module/board/ switch. Stay cool and run steam....
GM: Now on to the bus lines. Your bus lines should be 14 gauge solid copper wire. 16 gauge wire is TOO small. Your feeders from the track to the bus lines should be 22 gauge wire. 18-20 gauge wire is TOO large. Stay cool and run steam....
GM: The Wye is one reverse loop. Your other two multiple track loops can be each one loop or possibly two. When the track work is up you can set up the insulated sections for all the loops and then run trains through the entire layout to see the actual loops. The multiple mainline track complicates the issue. Stay cool and run steam.....
Bob, Well, that's what makes life fun! Right now, I am suffering from an acute dose of a lack of knowledge. Sooner of later, I am going to figure this out. Things are looking up right now. I just got back from the DCC Dpecialties web site. They have some helpful hints in the section about the automatic reversing sections. I'm going to quote them here: Helpful Hints </font> When Isolated and Reverse Sections exceed 10 Ft. in length install at least 2 sets of track feeders for that section. Lack of feeders causes a voltage loss.</font> For reverse sections, we recommended that the gaps be staggered about 1/8". Perfectly aligned gaps may reduce performance.</font> If your Power Sections and Reverse blocks are greater than 10 Ft. long be sure to have at least 2 sets of track feeders for that section. Insufficient feeders will cause a voltage drop.</font> One end of the reverse section will be aligned with normal polarity track power while the opposite or other end will have a polarity mismatch and require the reverser to act.</font> The last one is what I suspect to be the answer to my query. Yes, I do need two more. I will modify the plan and post a revised one later today. I will also include a new defination of where I think the reverse loops should start and finish by changing the location of the Green Colored track. Bob, You have been a great help. Thanks! GM [ February 09, 2006, 03:50 PM: Message edited by: GM ]
GM: When I set up the track on the JJJ&E, I thought I had three reverse loops. In actuality there was a fourth that I found when I ran test trains through all the track. Then there was the turntable as well. The JJJ&E is a double mainline layout. Sometimes the best way to find any possible extra loop is to lay the track and test it out. You know the loops you have. There won't be any dramatic change except to add the plastic railjoiners at both ends of the loop or cuts in the track. The wiring is basically the same in DCC. The reverse loop wiring is easy. Two wires from outside the loop to the reverse loop module and two wires inside the loop to the reverse loop module. The reverse loop module takes care of the rest. Just run the train into and through the loop. Another thing about reverse loops. Your longest train must be shorter than your shortest reverse loop. Have fun.... Stay cool and run steam....
I have one reverse loop that is sixteen feet long and there is no drop in voltage in that section of track. There is only one set of feeders inside the loop I routinely check the voltage and amps used by the system with a RRampmeter. Stay cool and run steam....
Then you have to set up your blocks for power districts,block occupancy detection, feedback and signaling. That's an entirely different chapter on the road to DCC. Stay cool and run steam....
Power districts! That's where we need to go next! As shown on the Preliminary Electrical Plan, I was planning to divide the layout into three power districts. Not because I need more power, but because I thought it might be advantageous to keep the main line open when the guys in the yard mess things up. Originally I had planed on making a cut in the main line at each edge of the yard. Near the end of the Switch leads. Now I'm thinking that maybe the mainline, and passenger sidings should be included in either the La Local or the Desert Power District. Just keep the ladders and the arrival track in the Yard District. What do you think? Thanks Again! GM
I would use two power districts. One entirely for the yard which will have many loco's sitting and the other for your mainline track. Almost two years ago I did an experiment with my Lenz 100 system to see how much amperage was actually used on the JJJ&E. I had 36 loco's with front headlights on sitting at various points on the layout. I have over 30 turnouts that operate with decoders. There were about 12 signals in operation at that time. I have 25 DSX Soundtraxx sound only decoders that turn on when the layout is turned on. The sound decoders are attached to four inch Radio Shack speakers under the benchwork.A sound decoder is multi-consisted with every loco consist or individual loco on the JJJ&E that goes on the mainline. I then ran two trains each with 28 cars and headed by an FT ABBA unit (all powered) at 1/4 throttle. The total amps used on the system was 1.27 amps. When the two trains ran at 1/2 throttle, total. amperage used was 1.52 amps. With the two trains at rest the total amps used was 1.17 amps. My Lenz 100 system has a 5 amp rating and the power district in the yard and turntable area is powered by a Lenz 01 Professional which has a four amp rating. So the mainline puts out 5 amps and only 1.52 amps was used and the switching yard and turntable is powered by 4 amps. The total amps for the system is not 9 amps, but 5 amps for the mainline and four for the switching yard and turntable area. This gives you an idea of the amount of power consumed by all those mentioned items. I would have to have 70 loco's on the mainline just sitting and four full trains powered by FT ABBA units to approach 3 amps used on the mainline. Just some food for thought on total power used by a layout. Stay cool and run steam.....
Bob, That was my original thought. For a purely personal reason, I would prefer to locate the DSC100 inder the benchwork in the vicinity of the Summit Tunnel. That's where I will be building a small workbench, and thought maybe I could put some staging under the table there and a programming track. The plan you see today is somewhat of a comprimise. I was told that running a track bus 40 feet long would result in a degration of the voltage to the far end of the bus. The compromise was to split the forty feet in half and locate the DSC100 there. If I were convinced that I could construct a 40 foot long track bus with no problems, I would do it in a minute. Your trick of using stationary sound decoders is something I will have to experiment with. Trying to fit a speaker in a N scale Locomotive sounds chalanging. But, more on that subject later. It's getting close to meal time so I had better sign off. Thanks for you help Again! GM
GM, Thanks for telling me about this thread!!! This is exactly what I needed to read. I am going to try to do the planning you have started here for my layout. Great thinking!
Maybe I'm missing something, but the five auto-reversers looks right to me. The return loops at each end of the layout are double tracked, so each track should have a reverser (total four) plus one for the turntable. The statement about each end of the reversing section does not mean a reverser at each end, but that in any reversing section, one end will always be out of phase with its connecting track. If a loco crosses an in-phase gap, no action is taken, but as it crosses the out of phase gap, the reversing section flips to correct the mismatch. GREAT layout design, BTW! Wish I could clear the basement of 20 years worth of junk and do the same for the Donner Pass route!
Hutch, Later today I am going to do an offline comparison of the features on the auto reversing modules. I have identified three manufacturers but have not had time to figure out just exactly what functionality each brings to market. I'll post the results of the comparison here. GM
Hutch, Later today I am going to do an offline comparison of the features on the auto reversing modules. I have identified three manufacturers but have not had time to figure out just exactly what functionality each brings to market. I'll post the results of the comparison here. GM </font>[/QUOTE]GM: Basically all the auto-reverser's are the same. Tony's Trains auto-reversing unit is a good buy. Four of my five auto-reversing units are made by Lenz and the fifth one is from Tony's. I do operate a Lenz 100 system on the JJJ&E and have many Lenz add-on components. Stay cool and run steam.....
Bob, Today I spent some time looking at the discriptions of the Auto Reversing modules on the Internet. For the uninitiated, it was like traveling through an information desert. All the infornmation was about the same. The only significant difference I could discern had to do with fault detection. All of them could detect the short and reverse the circuit, which is what they are supposed to do. Some could also detect a longer period of fault and shut down that portion of the power grid. Kinda like a circuit breaker. Unless I misread something today, it looks like the DCC Specialties On Guard boards are a winner. They are an all in one board with circuit breakers and a reversing feature. Do you have some time to answer a few operational type questions? I have a couple about sharing throttles and things like that. GM
