YoHo, I really have to agree with Nscalerone's response in this matter. The time, effort and the probable lack of the consistency in the final results in my opinion largely still negates the DIY approach for many, if not most, scenic materials in the hands of the average hobbyist. Having been in the hobby longer than many here have been alive, I can vouch to the fact that I've seen a lot of DIY scenicked layouts and for the most part the end results of DIY scenicking materials were pretty disappointing and unconvincing. Now I can build (and have) from scratch just about any FSM structure to a level where you cannot tell them apart. The FSM kits run $250-$350 each, but I have essentially reproduced a number of them for the layout at around $35 a piece. That's a huge savings some might say, but the time and effort involved in preparing, creating diagrams, sizing scale lumber and locating similar detail castings can involve many months...as compared to just opening the FSM kit and starting out. Now I love scratchbuilding, but sometimes spending the cash and being ready to go right away far outweighs the DIY approach in both time and results. I would add that a modest-sized layout, well scenicked with commercial scenicking products, today will run you perhaps $500-$600...if you really know what you are doing and how to do it properly. That's about the price of one high-end locomotive these days and hardly a huge sum of money, especially considering that it is usually paid out over time and not all at once, as is the case with the loco. Below is a close-up shot of a portion of my layout. I really like the look I've gained from the various commercial scenicking materials and don't honestly feel substituting a host of homemade products will get better, or even like results. NYW&B
Using commercially available scenicking materials is great, IF you've got that kind of money. But your "hardly a huge sum of money" is certainly a subjective opinion. If that kind of money is required, then it would prevent me from having any layout, any trains, basically anything at all. And to me, that's just not acceptable. I wanted some locomotives to run on my layout. But locomotives cost money, right? No. I looked at what I had and found a way to build my own (both locomotives you see in the photos I put on the first page of this thread are scratchbashed). I also found a way to trade for the powered chassis units needed to make them run. That fits my budget and I'm more than happy with the results (which is all that really matters to me), and as a bonus, others like it too. Same with structures. Kits available these days look really nice. But other than the stuff I've had in boxes for over a decade, new kits are way off my radar. So I'm designing and building my own paper & cardstock kits and so far I'm very happy with how they're coming along, too. Basically speaking, I'm not cheap. I make investments when necessary. But with medical expenses, a house to pay for, food to buy, four kids (from 1 to almost 10) to raise, a van that needs a new engine (cracked piston ring) and plenty of other bills to pay, any hobby that interests me has to be dirt cheap (no pun intended). I've got time, tools, raw materials, and resourcefulness. And like a good former Boy Scout, I'll do my best and be prepared. Plus, add in the challenge of making this stuff look good with all of these handicaps and it's extra fun for me.
PW&NJ, to be coldly honest, the true hobby of model railroading is by its very nature far from an inexpensive pursuit and it always has been. Traditional model railroading, the sort of thing one has seen depicted in the magazines for decades, is an advanced craftsman's hobby. Even when doing the bulk of the work one's self it runs to big money over time. The fact is, whether we like it or not, anything even approaching a quality layout of any significant size beyond say a basic 4x8 will likely run to $10k-$15k, at an absolute minimum, these days. Folks can claim doing model railroading on a shoestring budget, but the end result almost always glaringly reflects the corners that have been cut. That is why I say expending $500-$600 on basic scenicking materials to do a proper job can hardly be considered a large expenditure of money. NYW&B
I guess I'm not practicing the "true hobby of model railroading" then. $500-$600 on basic scenicking materials alone (not even including the rest of the layout and trains) is completely cost-prohibitive for me. So I have to disagree with you. Surely model railroading can be, but does not have to be expensive. Buying used equipment, using DIY options, and being very resourceful can get you excellent quality model railroads, that fit almost any budget. I've seen it done and will continue to strive to achieve that, not because I don't feel like spending money, but because I really enjoy trains and fully believe it's worth the effort, despite my lack of budget. Mainly though, the purpose of a hobby is to enjoy yourself. I hope you enjoy it. As for me, mission accomplished! And on less than a shoestring budget, even!
NYW&B, I have to agree with PW&NJ and in my opinion you're being a little, for lack of a better word Snooty. And I've seen plenty of layouts scenic'd with commercial products on the pages of major magazines that I was absolutely underwhelmed with. I fundamentally disagree with your assessment on the costs of this hobby. There was a time when you had no choice but to make your own scenery products. Are those layouts of the 50s junk? Joe Fugate's Siskiyou Lines is in my opinion one of the absolute best layouts in the hobby. http://siskiyou-railfan.net/e107_plugins/content/content.php?content.26 His videos show you how to DIY many different items. In fact he's one of the people who advocates making your own groundfoam. He advocates, makes and uses DIY static grass applicators. He shows how to make your own weathering powders with inexpensive products. He uses commercial products too when that's the best choice. He is a perfect example of the ethos I subscribe to. He looks to reduce his costs everywhere he uses DIY everywhere and saves his money for the scenery pieces that just have to be purchased. Again, his layout is in my opinion one of the absolute best of the last 10 years. So I reject your notion that DIY looks bad. In fact it looks better. But you're welcome to buy your deadfall prepackaged instead of getting it from the wood chipper or buy ballast prepackaged instead of sifting from cheaper building materials and if you don't want to grind your own groundfoam, then fine, but don't suggest that those that do will have by definition worse looking layouts. You would be wrong.
To add to this, John Allen (the Gold standard for model railroaders) made just about all of his stuff. If the G&D were still around today, I'd say it would still be very very highly regarded by modelers of all skill levels. Then there's MC Fujiwara's layouts (Mt. Coffin and the Summer Shunting Project) here. His trees are awesome, and even though he does use store-bought ground foam and static grass, he also does a whole lot of DIY stuff. Compared to what I've seen in MR over the past 30 or so years, I'd have no problem declaring his layouts as-good or better. Regardless, before this gets into a mudslinging match, to each his own. Use what works for you, and what makes you happy. I'm having fun. That's the whole point, right?
Moving this back to this thread so the Weekend modeling plans doesn't get sidetracked I'm thinking there will be value in having one of each for Hobby purposes anyway, so I'll probably buy whichever I find the best deal on first.
Good thinking (and good moving this back here, too!). Regardless, make sure to show us some photos of your progress. Oh, and grab a cheap colander while you're out. It seriously makes drying the foam a whole lot easier. Enjoy!
Yes sir you are right on that! Today I took one of my BLMA Top Gons to school for Take A Model Train To Work Day, and I still had the price tag on the box, and when they saw it they said stuff like "You paid 18 dollars for that!" Not meaning that model trains are not neat, but they basically meant this "Big money-Little trains!"
I on the other hand bought 3 trailers, a bulkhead flat a HFCS tank car a Athearn BB GP60 and 2 packs of 33" metal wheels for a total of $70 last weekend at the international Railfair (all HO obviously). Not particularly expensive. Sure, they aren't super high quality models. So what, that GP60 is going to provide a lot of pleasure as I add the plow, the AC, paint the tank and handrails, configure the DCC. Same with the cars. Not that there's anything wrong with high detail ready to run. It's good stuff and when I can afford it and it's the only option, I'm all over it, but I can't afford to do that all the time and I have to say I don't know anyone else in this economy that can either.
OK, hold on for a minute guys. I knew that what I said would seem controversial, but let's be honest and objective about the situation. I'll be the first to agree that folks like Allen, Fujiwara and others cited do great things with very basic scenicking materials. However...that is because they are highly talented craftsman modelers, not run-of-the-mill hobbyists. Is there anyone here who can honestly claim that their efforts employing the same materials are, or would be, as good as the result obtained by those cited, or the many that have appeared in major magazines? I have to doubt it. Yes, there are many truly talented hobbyists around, but let's be honest here and admit that what one typically sees as layout scenes presented by the novice and average hobbyists that frequent the more general forums is usually no more than of mediocre in quality, even with the use of commercial kits and scenicking products. In my experience, those that try following the DIY route in their approach to modeling tend to exhibit work this is even less impressive. I regard the journeyman hobbyist as always being far better off employing commercial products in the effort to create a quality layout than resorting to DIY methods that all too often prove inconsistent in results and in poor quality. Denying such to be true, rather than pointing it out and acknowledging it, is the snooty or perhaps even naive outlook, in my opinion. For decades the intent of the hobby was toward creating a layout ever nearer to depicting absolute reality through exceptional natural modeling talent and/or the acquiring of increasingly better skills to do so. Formerly this was truly difficult because of the lack of suitable materials. However, today all the necessary materials to create a truly 1st class layout are readily available over the counter. Still, one sees little more than marginal improvement in the quality of most modeling compared with 10, or 15, years ago. And at the same time the gulf separating the efforts of revered modelers from the magazines and that of the average hobbyists grows ever larger. Yes, it is "your railroad" and you can do what you please, but isn't it better to expend funds as necessary to have one of quality and that looks realistic, rather than to have one resembling a Lionel trainboard? NYW&B
The way i see it is very similar to NYW&B. We have something similar to the Engineers Dilemma which I call the Modeler's Dilemma. You can choose two between Time & Effort, Realism & Prototypical, and Price. For example if you had a special steam loco that only ran on the prototype that you model but you wanted a model of it. If you want some thing with easy effort but realistic, you can pay a lot for RTR or even brass. If you want to be prototypical and pay less, you can spend your time to scratchbuild or kitbash, if you want something low price and low time and effort, you have to settle for something close but not prototypical. Now the thing is that the Modeler's Dilemma has improved a lot lately, plastic n scale steam is a perfect example. Our plastic locos cost fractions of what old brass locos cost, they are better detailed than anything even 10 years ago, and are RTR or close to it. While this is the case for some things in the hobby, its still tempered by your skill, like what NYW&B said. It is up to you how much you want to pay, how much time you want to spend, and how much frustration you want to live with.
I still disagree. This hobby is about the enjoyment of trains. That enjoyment may manifest itself in everything from watching trains go around in circles to scratchbuilding the toilet seats in a Phase II Amcafe car. But all of those are the choices of the hobbyist. My old keyboardist from my band enjoyed trains just as much as I do. And he didn't give a hoot what the scenery looked like. Why? He was blind, that's why. Did he enjoy the "true hobby of model railroading"? YES. The fact is, there are many levels of skill and experience, as well as many different facets of the hobby that interest people. You seem to be interested in recreating real life as close to scale perfection as possible. Excellent. I can not only appreciate that, but I can also accept that that's your bag. More power to you. I look forward to seeing the excellent quality work that money, time, experience, and skill can turn out. If I was equally equipped, I'm pretty confident that I could create something on-par with your best work. But I'm not, and rivet-perfect replication of prototypes, while interesting, isn't my bag. Operations is. And "close-enough" modeling is JUST FINE by me (the one that it matters to). So, rather than go around talking about objectivity where it doesn't exist (choices versus specific to your personal choice), I'll just go back and repeat what I said before. I'm enjoying this great hobby. My son is, too. And I hope you do, too! Seriously, not being sarcastic. Trains are FUN. Don't get bogged down in the details so much that you start spoiling it for others. Life is wayyy too short for that. Enjoy! Quotes from the NMRA site: "But the best part of it all is that you are not forced to learn much. You can derive as much, or as little, education from the hobby as you want. After all, sometimes we just want to have fun!... It's Fun! ...In case you missed it, it's fun!"
