Distracted by shiny things!

2-8-8-0 Jul 4, 2010

  1. TwinDad

    TwinDad TrainBoard Member

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    Would y'all mind including or linking to some photos? I'd love to see what you're talking about (being clueless myself), both prototype and model...

    :D
     
  2. 2-8-8-0

    2-8-8-0 TrainBoard Member

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    I dont have any models yet, and dont have a scanner (I have as many books on lake boats and shipping and such as I do on the railroads) but here are a couple goodies. The first is, I believe, the PRR dock in Cleveland, it could be Lorain, but definately not Ashtabula, as the PRR dock in Ashtabula had Pickans-Mather unloaders, not Huletts. As can be seen, a lakefront dock scene involves some rather huge equipment (like that traveling ore crane in the foreground)

    [​IMG]

    And a typical stern of the Lakers of the period I wish to model; unusually, this boat is a self-unloader, which didnt become commonplace until the 1970s, most being unloaded by Huletts as above, or other types of unloaders. I believe her (from the era, self unloader, and stern design, the name is rather unclear) to be the J.F. Schoellkopf, Jr, launched in 1930, converted to self unloader in 1933(!) and still sailing in 1970. The stern and overall shape are quite representative of this era of laker. Could also be W.W. Holloway, both boats are quite similar, and unfortunately I have no clear pics of their sterns (aside from this one!)

    Ahh, edit here. That "C" in the Star marks her as being in the service of Columbia Transportation, who had a close relationship with Armco steel; may be preparing to unload in Toledo? W.W. Holloway, she almost certainly is.

    [​IMG]

    Warning, they are addictive!
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 7, 2010
  3. TwinDad

    TwinDad TrainBoard Member

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    What did they haul? Coal? Other aggregates? Grain? General freight?
     
  4. Packers#1

    Packers#1 TrainBoard Member

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    I model the area surrounding me, and there isn't a whole ton of stuff that wouldn't fit perfectly in the locale I'm modeling. I actually need to keep looking around and finding neat scenes to model. But has it happened to me before? OH YES! I've wanted to swap to the MILW Road's Lines west after the article about it in TRP. and then there's been their articles on things like Penn Central and FEC...I get most of my model railroading distraction from magazines as we don't travel much.
     
  5. 2-8-8-0

    2-8-8-0 TrainBoard Member

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    oh, you got me started!

    Generally they would load iron ore in Wisconsin and Minnesota, especially at Duluth/Superior (Great Northern/DM&IR country!) and come down to either Ohio and unload in one of a multitude of places (generally, Toledo, Lorain, Cleveland, Ashtabula, or Conneaut) and load coal, to take elsewhere. The ore would be handled by one of a number of railroads, depending on what harbor they called on; C&O, PRR, NYC, B&LE being the ones in the major ore ports. They would also unload stone at Huron or Fairport, and load other products such as salt, coal, other aggregates, cement (cement carriers look very similar, but are generally smaller and in dedicated cement service) and even wheat or oats. They would also unload at Detroit or River Rogue in Michigan, Gary, Indiana, or Calumet/Chicago, Illinois. At one time, hundreds of these ships crisscrossed every inch of the lakes; we have 130 or so remaining, but they tend to be massive, over 1000 feet long and 110 feet abeam.

    The lakers were to the area around the lakes what the railroads were to a good deal of the rest of the country; we built them, they built us.

    Just adding on, rather than another post; These ships, and of course their close relationship with railroads, are a part of my everyday life. I can literally look out my kitchen window and watch them load coal and unload ore or stone. They are also, however, huge, and so are the facilities that support them. Would love to do a PRR/NYC layout in all its grandeur and glory, but dont have the space, dont ever expect I will, and even if i did, wouldnt expect to be able to complete something like that in anything resembling a reasonable length of time.

    Western Maryland is everything the above roads were not; yet, I do love that little railroad.
     
  6. 2-8-8-0

    2-8-8-0 TrainBoard Member

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    And one more post, just because no discussion of the Lakes is complete without mentioning her;

    [​IMG]

    The most famous of them all, all 729 feet of her. Built in 1958, towards the twilight of the "golden age" of the lake boat; yep, Lakes shipping, like railroading, had a "golden age"! She broke several records her first couple years, being the first ship to carry in excess of 27000 tons of ore. Nowadays, some of them carry upwards of 60000. But they sure dont do it with as much class or grace. She was headed to Cleveland the night she sank, and two of her sailors were from my hometown.

    Amanda
     
  7. TwinDad

    TwinDad TrainBoard Member

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    Nice. A beautiful ship, in her own, functional, way. Interesting stuff. I'll have to put it on my study list... :D

     
  8. TexasNS

    TexasNS TrainBoard Member

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    Brings back memories of home - I also grew up in NYC/NKP country and used to love looking at all of the ships out on Lake Erie. Every now and then I would go down to the entrance to Erie harbor to watch one of the big boats come through the channel. And everytime I get back up to the area, I always make a point to go to Ashtabula and Conneaut (just so I can see some B&LE action).

    I have to admit, I'm not sure how you can stick with the Western Maryland (though I can understand it) when there are so many interesting railroads to model in your area. Youngstown has a huge history - don't forget the P&LE, B&O, and Erie (my favorite of course.) And then there's also the W&LE - I could spend days chasing trains on that road.

    Hmmm, I'm getting some ideas as to what to do on my vacation in a few weeks. After all, I'll be in the area so I might as well go see some trains, right? Maybe I'll follow the B&LE from Conneaut down to Greenville, and then down to Pittsburgh. Then the W&LE back towards Brewster, and then up to Cleveland. Follow the NYC and NKP back to Erie. I've also been meaning to go visit all of the trestles on the NKP between Cleveland and Buffalo (there are quite a few of them after all). Yep, looks like I've got some stuff to plan!

    Thanks for the inspiration!
     
  9. friscobob

    friscobob Staff Member

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    I've had a preference for Midwestern railroading, since I'm a native of the area. Even in Texas and Oklahoma, I prefer the grain elevators. However, I've been researching paper mills and pulpwood yards of the South, and these facilities also exist in Oklahoma. SO do I model a Frisco subdivision in, say, SE Kansas or SE Oklahoma? Or do I switch railroads & model MP or Rock Island? Or the UP's Encampment Branch in Wyoming circa 1960s, when I lived in Saratoga, WY?

    For the sake of my sanity and my wallet, I need to focus on a more specific location. I'm not against a model railroad that is all-inclusive & eclectic, but for me I prefer a narrower focus in my modeling. On my next layout, I'm seriously considering returning to SE Kansas on the Frisco- or at least part of it.

    Model railroading ADD........gotta love it! :D :D
     
  10. YoHo

    YoHo TrainBoard Supporter

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    I love Ore Boats and Lake Michigan Car Ferries.

    My family owns a cottage in Door County Wisconsin Right on Port Des Mortes. I haven't been since the economic downturn, but we would regularly see boats cutting through from the UP heading to Chicago/Gary. Typically Inland Steel. Don't know the name now.
    Then, growing up in Chicago, there was once or twice driving on the south side that I've been stopped at a bridge waiting on those same Inland Steel boats. If you remember the movie Blues Bros. It was an Ore boat that caused the bridge to go up that they jumped.

    When we used to Drive to that cottage in the Door, we'd pass through Manitowoc and Kewanee. So we saw and the SS. Badger Last of the lake Michigan Car Ferries. I didn't know that back in the 1980s when she still called on Kewanee that she hauled Railroad cars still. The Pentrex Best of 1990 video has some of her final voyages with railcars on tape.

    There was at least one modeler in the Chicago area that has an exquiste replica of her. I've seen it at Train shows there, but that was 10 years ago.
     
  11. YoHo

    YoHo TrainBoard Supporter

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    One more thing, if you go to the Chicago Museum of Science and Industry, Their Chicago to Seattle BNSF HO layout features both an Ore boat in Chicago and a Container Ship in Seattle.


    Also, TwinDad, the Aformentioned SS. Badger was a C&O/Chessie owned Ship which they built after they acquired the Pere Marquette.

    [​IMG]
     
  12. spam1234

    spam1234 TrainBoard Member

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    :thumbs_up:my favorite place is the shores of lake Superior I love to watch them load the boats especially two harbors mn Jay
     
  13. TwinDad

    TwinDad TrainBoard Member

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    LOL! Maybe we should re-title the thread "Distracted by Big Boats" ...

    Reminds me of a layout I saw in a magazine somewhere - probably MRR or maybe one of the "101 trackplans" mags. It was a thoroughly West Virginia based coal layout... with a car ferry on one end...

    :D
     
  14. Hytec

    Hytec TrainBoard Member

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    Amanda, there is a possibility for you to model a laker, albeit a strange one.

    In 1970, Ingalls Shipbuilding, Pascagoula, MS (Division of Litton Industries) contracted to build the Stewart J. Cort. What's interesting is that the Pascagoula yard built the bow and stern, while Erie Marine, Erie, PA built the mid-section. The reason being that the complete ship would be too large for the Welland Canal locks.

    The bow and stern were welded together at the Pascagoula yard forming a 182' long by 75' wide vessel. "Stubby", the name assigned by Ingalls' employees, then steamed under her own power through the Florida Straits, up the East Coast, up the St Lawrence, through Lake Ontario to the Lake Erie yard. She was then cut apart and the mid-section inserted.

    http://www.boatnerd.com/pictures/fleet/cort.htm

    My thought is that you could model the Stubby configuration then have lots of fun explaining this to all the doubters and rivet counters. :tb-wink:
     
  15. Chaya

    Chaya TrainBoard Supporter

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    No kidding. I'm starting to daydream about a layout with a Puget Sound connection set in the late 50's. There would be lumber and grain loaded onto ships, and fishing boats pulling in with their catch. The incredible "World's First Streamlined Motor Ferry," MV Kalakala, would be floating by on her way to Colman Dock...

    KALAKALA-Mania: Vintage Postcards

    (Not that I could ever build such a thing).
     
  16. Arctic Train

    Arctic Train TrainBoard Member

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    Pete,
    You were my inspiration for my ship building ventures. I did as you recommend. For the hull of my container ship I used a hunk of wood and shaped it with a ban saw and disk sander.
    http://www.trainboard.com/railimages/data/500/P2050331.JPG
    My container ship measures 530 scale feet. Nowhere near to scale but it was all the room I had on my layout. I’m not a rivet counter anyway and the whole thing is a loose representation, but I like it and that’s what matters. It was darned near free to build since I used a for “sale sign” for the styrene parts as well as other items found around the house. The barge was all styrene with a few store bought detail parts.
    http://www.trainboard.com/railimages/data/500/barge_019.jpg
    I still need to find a way to blend the waterline into the surface as it has a slight warp to it.

    Never thought I’d be building ships for a model train layout but I guess I just love building stuff. And the marine aspect definitely adds detail to the whole. I recommend to anyone with a spot to place a ship to give scratch building one (or many) a go.

    Brian
     
  17. 2-8-8-0

    2-8-8-0 TrainBoard Member

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    Brian, I love your container ship as well as that little barge! They look great to me, hopefully if i build one it comes out half as nice.

    And hilarious idea about the Stewart J. Cort. That would indeed get some looks and plenty of questions, I am sure!

    Yeah, thats a good title...distracted by big boats. I get distracted easily, hence this whole thread, but the boats played a part in the bigger whole. Ore came off the boat, was placed in hoppers in Ashtabula; train pulls hoppers to Youngstown (to that huge steel mill I mentioned in post 1, perhaps? I believe it was Jones and Laughlin at one point?) unloads ore. Hoppers go from there to Pennsylvania, West Virginia, or Kentucky, load coal, and come back to Ashtabula (or anywhere along Lake Erie, really) where they dump the coal and wait for more ore.

    The boats are loaded at the huge ore docks up in Minnesota or Wisconsin, by trains. They carry the ore here. They are unloaded, loaded with coal, stop somewhere else (Gary for example) to unload that. They then return north for more ore. This is repeated with all sorts of materials, anything that can be handled in bulk and carried in their hold, they moved.

    Steel products go to Alco, AC&F, Great Lakes Engineering, wherever, to build more trains, more boats, more hoppers and rail and all the other stuff the whole process required to work, and they travel by rail. Try to imagine the vast quantities of these resources the whole thing took to work.

    This was repeated literally dozens of times a day, all over the region. And even the little Western Maryland played its part, even if Huletts never dumped ore into a trainload of WM hoppers. But ill admit, its hard to resist...!
     
  18. 282mike

    282mike TrainBoard Member

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    I'll take two of those one of them ofthe others,,,OH DANG I'm out o money,,,Oh look somethin shiny!:tb-biggrin::tb-cute::tb-embarrassed:
     
  19. Hytec

    Hytec TrainBoard Member

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    I was working at Ingalls during the time of Stubby's construction and delivery. One of the delivery crew told me later that Stubby was the worst sea-keeping vessel he had ever had the misfortune to ride. He said she heaved, rolled, and yawed unmercifully due to her short box-like shape and extreme light weight, especially during her passage through the Atlantic swells off Cape Hatteras. :tb-wacky:
     
  20. Pete Nolan

    Pete Nolan TrainBoard Supporter

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    Someone asked for pictures?

    Here are pictures of the model. I do have two pictures of the original, but no scanner access tonight (I had some knee surgery today, so my sitting time is limited tonight.) The Beavercove was built, along with three other sister ships, in 1947 to replace the ships lost by Canadian Pacific during WWII. She is 497 feet long, with a top speed of 19 knots. Here's a 3/4th bow view.

    [​IMG]

    And here's a 3/4th stern view. I used solid gunwhales instead of railings. The gunwhale stays are parts from the Bachmann Car Repair Shop.

    [​IMG]

    This is an overall view of bow section.

    [​IMG]

    Here's a closer look at forward hatches 1 & 2. The crew (on order) is rolling back hatch No.2. There are winches, winch control stands, and boom rests, along with ladders up the posts and lots of rigging.

    [​IMG]

    My blog and Railimages album have more images of this and other boats. The fleet is pretty extensive.

    Four C-2 freighters (450-500 ft)
    One C-2 Tanker
    One C-1 freighter (about 350 ft)
    Two USCG cutters
    Two minesweepers
    One coastal freighter
    One Benson-class destroyer
    Two Navy tugs

    And others I've forgotten.

    Ships are addictive. (So are bridges, but I've already hijacked this thread, although with Amanda's help.)
     

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