I've pretty much decided on NCE DCC PowerCab (other consideration is Digitrack) with Peco switches and Tortoise (or?) switch machines on a very small (10’x10’) HO layout. The rough plan includes ~20 -25 switches (which includes double slips, 2 & 3 Y’s) a few Xings & 3 reverse loops. I want to use DCC & will probably only run just 1 or 2 locos @ a time. I don't have any long wheel base engines. It's been suggested that I use Tortoise switch machines for ease of installation, operation & simply "a more fun experience", but am open for other recommendations. Here are a few questions that I specifically have. 1) Should I use Insulfrog or Electrofrog Peco switches? I've been told Insulfrog is best but have read that elecros work fine. Does one or the other work better w/a particular DCC (NCE or DIgitrack)? Is one or the other type of switch easier to install & operate? 2) Do double slips, wyes, Y's, and crossings need special treatments? For example, I think that I was told that double slips need 2 Tortoise machines. 3) What decoders are recommended for Tortoise & DCC, or is there a particular 1 recommended for NCE vs. Digitrack? 4) Can NCE or Digitrack handle this setup better? From what I've read so far it seems that NCE has the greater flexibility & expansion capacity. I may not have read enough yet, so that's why I ask for input. I will be watching U-Tube stuff tonight to get a better idea ~which system looks more comfortable but I'm seeking input from regular folks that use the products. I’m sure that it’s obvious that I’m a newbie in the hobby (out of it for 45+ yrs.). I look forward to reading responses, getting ideas/tips/suggestion/recommendations/cautions, etc. like web sites that I should look at. Your help is appreciated.
Below are some links about Peco About Peco ElectroFrog Turnouts: Valuable Information from Loy's Toys About Peco InsulFrog Turnouts: Valuable Information from Loy's Toys I do know the Power Cab does not always work with a couple reversers. The MRC reverser for one. Happend to me and some others. The Power Cab with the SB3a would be they way to go. 5 amps of current versus 2.0 amps with the Power Cab. Mine cuts out at 1.7 amps and you can disconnet the cab and move around the layout and plug in at another spot. The locos will keep running. Rich
Slips of both double and single type need 2 motors regardless of DCC/DC or motor type. They are essentially two back-back turnouts. (You know the film 'The Fly'? Well, if you put two turnouts in his transporter machine you'd get a double slip out the other end )
Note that Peco switches have a snap action spring. Tortoise motors are normally used with switches without any springs, so you get a slow movement of the points. To use Tortoise controllers with Peco switches you need to remove the little snap action spring. A web search will find some notes about that .. I've never done it myself. Also, Tortoise motors are quite large vertically. There are other equivalent options out there. Phil
If you are set on the Tortoise machines, the best and easiest installation for DCC is the DCC Specialties Hare and Wabbit series of stationary decoders. The double slip will need an auto reverser, and if NCE has problems with that, then you may need to look elsewhere like Digitrax. Wyes only need a reverser if you are actually using them to perform the resersing operation. And if that is the case, only one leg of the wye needs an autoreverser. Otherwise, they are just another turnout. I would disagree about NCE being more flexible and expandable than Digitrax since Digitrax has more porducts and more 3rd party manufacturers. But in any case, the best system is what you like best, regardless of anything else.
As stated above the Peco turnouts have an over-centre spring which will cause problems with the Tortoise. These can be removed, though. As for stationary decoders, if you don't have issue with doing some wiring, any of the available stall-type turnout decoders will work for you with the Tortoise. I have a PowerCab SB3A system and use NCE Switch-it's with both DCC (also through a PC interface running DecoderPro/PanelPro) and pushbutton control from a fascia panel of the turnout. Also worth considering is a servo motor based control if you are planning on using local panels for turnout control. Tam Valley Depots Octopus2 is one example of servo control and there's a DCC option as well. Whilst the PowerCab has had problems with some of the auto-reversers on the market (the polarity switching time is slower than the PowerCab over-current trip time) if you keep to the electronic versions then there is less issue. If you expand the PowerCab by getting a SB3A booster I believe there are fewer problems, if any. I think the flexibility and expandabilty of the various systems would be best referred to as better than others, rather than greater.
Not true. A simple crossing needs something of that ilk or a manual switch, but the slips can be wired from the turnout motors' auxiliary contacts just as a plain turnout can. It's a little harder to work out which frog to wire to each contact, but it is very doable. There are some illustrations of removing Peco springs on my website (that's for Code 75 stuff, but others are likely to be same/similar).
The problem I have seen is that the in the middle of the throw, there is a momentary short spike in the Tortoise machine that can wreak havoc if not handled otherwise. The problem is compounded with the dual machines working in close proximity. It is safest to let the tortoise machine connection go and use an auto-reverser.
David, I believe Circuitron fixed this. I have around 20 of them with build dates back to '05 and all contacts are break before make. Years before, the original version had a slight make before break that caused a momentary short as the mechanism travelled through the centre position but this was fixed with a revision to the internal PCB.
Gary, Well thanks for the update! It was about 8 years ago I saw these issues and have just fallen into the habit of protecting from the shorts. I just continued, it seemed, after the problem was fixed, but I was not aware of the change. So with this information folks, please disregard my posts above.
A simple crossing needs something of that ilk or a manual switch, but the slips can be wired from the turnout motors' auxiliary contacts just as a plain turnout can. It's a little harder to work out which frog to wire to each contact, but it is very doable Can you be a bit more specific about the wiring that you refer to?
Circuitron fixed this. I have around 20 of them with build dates back to '05 and all contacts are break before make. Years before, the original version had a slight make before break that caused a momentary short as the mechanism travelled through the centre position but this was fixed with a revision to the internal PCB. Is there any way of telling how old a machine is? If find some used ones I'd like to know if they're pre-correction models. Is the a model # difference that would be an identifier?
I was speaking to a hobby supplier a few days ago (BillsTrains) who told me that there is a new Australian rival to Tortoise. Apparently it is smaller, stronger, easier to install & currently available only in Australia. He says that he has just recieved permission to be the 1st USA distributor of the machine. Know anything about it? I wish I could remember its name, but can't... a senior momentary memory loss sort thing.
The bodies have a sticker on them with four digits in mmyy format. As for when they changed, best contact Circuitron - info@circuitron.com Keep in mind that this is what I recall having been done. There are several sites detailing further mods to the traces on the PCB over what you require and what Circuitron produces.
With a normal turnout you connect a wire from each rail to each 'side' of an auxiliary switch on the motor and then connect the common (center) terminal to the frog. (You then test it and find the two rail wires are the wrong way round, swap them, and all is good ) With a slip (IIRC) you do the same, but twice, using the aux switch on motor A to switch the frog that is the far side of throwbar B, and vice-versa. It isn't nearly as bad as the slip makes it look like it should be. Just remember it's two turnouts that overlap each other.
