dc than dcc

Hello once again.

I have a question that some of the old dc users might be able to help with.

Is it wise to learn from the ground up? Meaning, learn and wire my first setup dc power.
Later, if I think I want or need DCC upgrade. Granted, starting with DC and upgrading to DCC could be a waste of money.
But ! I would also be learning the building blocks of the hobby from the ground up.

I have read newcomers start with DCC you get all the bells and whistles ect. I have also read a lot don't switch to DCC.
So I would like to hear from people that have switched.

I bought a little N scale boxcar to see for myself 1st hand how small they are, I don't think I will ever open a engine to do mods or anything.


Thanks,
Burgh

 

The question really is like the one about whether a person learning to drive really ought to start with the basics and then do the learner's test using a stick shift. No. If you have no need of learning how to drive a manual transmission, and are highly unlikely to have your life depend on knowing how to do it, and your personal vehicle for which you'd like to be fully licensed is an automatic, just learn how to drive your own vehicle...such as it is. Once you see the relative simplicity of DCC, there would be NOTHING to stop you from making a little switching network in DC with lots of complex wiring...but later.

 

Different people will have different views, according to their circumstances. Some might not want to commit the money, or be able to commit it, to converting from dc - my small layout has 28 locomotives and would cost around 1000GBP to convert to DCC, including a controller. Some may not be able to understand the different wiring arrangements which are required. If starting now, I would go to DCC straight off but I have more important things to do with the money than spend it on converting systems. The comparison with driving manual or automatic is an interesting one. Over here, if you have a licence (license in US English!) for automatic, you're not allowed to drive a manual without a separate test. If you have the manual, you are allowed to drive an automatic - it just takes a bit of getting acquainted!

 

Thank you all for your time and info.

Sounds like I really won't miss out on anything if I just go DCC. I will have to do my homework on it and see which makes more sense.
DCC sounds like the better route, but costly. I don't have a budget, but need to keep in mind this a hobby I am adding to my other hobbies.

As for the manual and auto -- I drive both. When I use to landscape we had to drive stick shift which lead me to get toy in manual.
Now I mainly drive auto so I don't hear - ( you bought a manual so I can't drive it) !! ;-)

Thanks Again !!!

Burgh

 

If you are going to consider DCC with sound, you will have many, many more locos available with sound if space is not too important a consideration.

Rich

 

If you are limited to N scale or even Z scale but want sound, here is a video of an N scale layout using the SoundTraxx, SurroundTraxx system which uses an under the layout sound system with different speakers and a Digitrax module.
The sound will not come out of the loco, but admit it, we are just boys playing with toys.

Remember, steam locomotives on a layout have the sound coming out of the tender except for the few who squeeze cell phone speakers into the smoke box for HO scale locos.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e7eapVvnCYs

Rich

 

I don't really see dc as learning from the ground up but rather a case of experimenting with whether the hobby is for someone. Like all hobbies, just because you try it out doesn't mean you will stick with it for the rest of your life. As a result, it's best to start simple and try to keep costs down which generally means going with dc. Otherwise, you run the risk of continuing in model railroading only based on a feeling of obligation based on how much you have spent which is no fun.

 

The manual and auto thing really doesn't work. DCC is much more versatile than DC in EVERY aspect. Starter sets from at least two manufacturers' (Digitrax & Lenz) will allow you to run a single DC (analog) powered train on address "0". NEC, MRC, Bachmann do not. There may be other systems that allow analog running on address "0", but Digitrax and Lenz are excellent systems and I'm familiar with both of them.

So, if you're thinking you'll EVER want to run an engine that's not DCC on your layout, then your choices are limited to Digitrax or Lenz.

As to DCC being "costly"...it doesn't have to be. The beginner Digitrax Zephyr Xtra is selling for as low as $179.95 and is a VERY versatile system and gives up little compared to its much more expensive stablemates. Also on the plus side, the Zephyr can be easily added to over time and as the budget allows, with wireless throttles, signaling options, stationary decoder control, power block management and train detection. The Zephyr is a "stand-alone" Command Station and does not need a separate power supply.

When the time comes and you need to run more engines than the Zephyr will allow, then, if you've wired things up with expansion in mind, just unplug the Zephyr and plug in a more advanced Digitrax Command Station & a power supply with more amps. Everything else (Loconet, wireless throttles, radio receiver, power management board, etc.) will run identically with the new upgrade.

Decoders. Cheap but good non-sound decoders are readily available from a number of manufacturers for both N and Z scale engines. Some are drop-in, some aren't. If you need to save money and are okay with non-drop-in decoders you can pick up good, tiny decoders for between $12 and $15 bucks each. Not exactly "costly".

Having recently (three years ago) converted over to DCC (Digitrax Super Empire Builder Radio) from a 30 year-long run with DC, the first thing I did was take an old, straight and simple module I had stuck in the corner of my garage, set it up on a 6' folding table as a "DCC TEST MODULE" specifically to familiarize myself with what is required and preferred to install a leading-edge DCC wiring system on my layout, before tearing out my rat's nest of DC wiring. I wired in a crossover between the two mainlines and used one end of the red track as a switchable (run-off-program) programming track, so I could simultaneously learn how to install decoders in my roster of analog engines while messing with wire sizes and connectors for the rest of it.

Digitrax is notorious for having a steep learning curve, but my son and I are smart boys and it didn't take long for us to get the hang of it. At the same time, I was able to find really good deals on 14 ga. and 12 ga. red/black zip speaker wire (high purity/low ox) for my main and secondary busses, unbelievable eBay deals on brown and red genuine 3M IDC's (insulation displacement connectors, otherwise known as "suitcase connectors") and Anderson Power Poles since my home layout is comprised of sections and modules which get separated when I take parts of it to three shows a year.

After about a month, I was ready to start ripping out the wiring on my old DC modules. Luckily, since my layout is modular, I was able to set each module on its back on my 6' folding table and do most of the re-wiring without having to crawl around underneath. Before I started ripping wires, I decided that since what I wanted was "leading edge" I was going to have to wire every piece of rail with its own 22ga feeder, so I spent several evenings and two weekends determining where my old trackwork's joints were, then marked the spot where the red, black or green (for frogs) feeders would go, then drilled the holes and stuck all the hundreds of red feeders into those holes, soldered them to the bottom of my rails, then did the same thing with the black and green feeders. Each feeder was 6" long and positioned close to the center of every piece of rail.

Nickel Silver is a notoriously poor conductor of electrical current, and I'd had trouble in the past trusting NS rail joiners to carry current to sections of rail, with some portions being so electrically poor that engines would noticeably slow down when they ran on that section of track, I had learned my lesson and now, rail joiners are only for mechanical alignment and are not necessary for my track to work reliably.

When I was tearing out the rat's nest of DC wiring (including a couple of dozen toggle switches and wiring from my Tortoises that powered sidings or sections of track), and then starting re-wiring, it became immediately obvious that DCC wiring was MUCH simpler...like, exponentially more simple, particularly in my Echo and Park City Yards.

However, electrical principles are exactly the same when wiring for DCC or DC, except with DCC there are a lot of toggle switches and gaps that don't need to installed or cut.

It's a good idea to include a programming track on your layout, which is switched from "road power" to "off" to "program". If you are planning running DC/Analog engines on address "0", you can use your programing track to park your DC/Analog engines because analog motors don't like to be parked on DCC and will "sing" and overheat (like, burn up) after a short while if not running.

All went pretty well and quickly. Since I am self-employed and single and my kids are grown, I was able to put a lot of time into the project over a period of a week and a half. However, I did have a couple of "phantom shorts" that just about drove me to take a sledgehammer to the whole thing. My train buddy Ralph talked me down late one night.

The lessons to un-frustrating wiring are pretty simple. (1) NEVER ASSUME. (2) ALWAYS TEST EVERY ELECTRICAL CONNECTION BEFORE PROCEEDING ONWARD TO THE NEXT!!! Also, (3) LABEL everything in an orderly fashion. Just putting a red "flag" of red electrical tape on red line's wiring and doing the same on other electrically separate power districts and making sure you label your feeders before attaching them to your sub-busses and busses goes a long way to avoid frustrating confusion. (4) KEEP A LOG of your wiring and put it in a safe place (or do it digitally) so you can refer to it later, because you WILL need to do that later.

After your DCC wiring is all in, tested and you have trains running flawlessly,(5) keep a log of each engine's CV settings and staple the intallation sheet that comes with the decoder to the log entry.

I'm not even going to get into SOUND (which is what caused me to finally bite the bullet and go with DCC). But, it's really great to know that it's becoming better, cheaper and smaller for those of us who love it.

Here's my real-world experience of the revelation of running on my fairly complex layout:
RUNNING A TRAIN FROM RED LINE TO YELLOW LINE:
DC/Analog: To run a train from red line to yellow line, I had to have a "common" section of track in a crossover that could be switched (using an under-the-fascia toggle switch) that was red-off-yellow. I'd run my engine(s) onto the transition track, stop the whole train, flip the toggle switch to "center off", then I'd change my throttle (!)...to the one with yellow tape on it, setting down the red throttle, flip the toggle to "red", then start the train up and out onto red line.

DCC: I switch my crossover and run my train from red to yellow.

PARKING AN ENGINE:

DC/Analog: To park an engine in DC, I had to divide each siding that had turnouts on either end into two sections, each section either being turned "on" or "off" by toggle switches or using my Tortoise's DPDT switch to power the siding according to the way the closure points were aligned. To park an engine, I'd align the turnout to the siding, run the engine into the half of the siding closest to the turnout, then throw the turnout, which would "power off" that half of the siding, the light going off on the engine.

DCC: I simply find a spot somewhere on the layout, stop the engine, drop its address by using my "dispatch" button on my wireless throttle, then walk away. Before I "dispatch" it, I can turn off the light, or dim it if I want to.

With my Super Throttle, which has two throttle buttons, I can run two trains at the same time. Another operator with another Super Throttle can also run two trains along with mine. Other operators, depending on the type of throttles they have, can run other trains simultaneously. All by myself at shows, with two Super Throttles and three Utility Throttles, I've run six trains on my double-tracked mainline and switched in my yard all at the same time. Since my wiring is super dependable, with hand-laid turnouts and no dead spots and no problem areas, it was surprisingly easy.

The point to this long post, is to show that DCC is not overly costly, nor complex. Just the opposite. Yep, it does cost a bit more than straight DCC, but not much. It IS something "new" and there's a learning curve no matter what system you decide to go with, but, the added simplicity of wiring and operation, plus the extremely higher level of versatility make DCC the way to go...with no regrets whatsoever.

Frankly, over the past three years since I converted, I ask myself quite often "What took you so long to do this?". The answer is that I was intimidated by my false perception that it was overly complex. It can be complex, especially when fiddling with sound, speed matching or establishing the running characteristics of a particular engine, but after you've done it a few times, it becomes second nature.

Here's a photo of my layout room while I was doing my DCC wiring, tipping my modules on their backs to get at the feeders and install the new DCC wiring:


Here's a photo of my portable DCC "board" which controls the layout both at home and when I take portions of my layout to shows: You can see the power supply, the command station, the power block controller (3 power blocks) and the programming track signal and power amplifier for programming sound decoders which sometimes need more power and signal:


Cheerio!
Bob Gilmore

 

Hey,

I still have my stick shift car from 1982 and an automatic from 1995. Still driving both.

That said, DCC is the better way to go if you are starting out. Simpler wiring, in most cases, and in addition to decoder installs, many manufacturers are releasing locomotives with decoders installed from the factory.

 

Thank you all for the advice, info, and pic's.

DCC it is when I get that far.
Makes more since and I will be better off in the long run.
Upgrading system and adding more definitely sounds better than rewiring, ect.

Mr. Bob G. , are you trying to give me a melt down from overload? ROFL !!
Just messing with you. More info members give me the better !!


Cheers !!


Burgh / Chris

 

The thing is, we don't actually know what the OP has in mind for their first layout. So it's possible that the wiring might be similar regardless of DC or DCC which makes it possible to convert between the two relatively painlessly.

I mean, if you are only going to have a single track oval with a passing siding and an industry or two operated by a single locomotive, you might as well go DC while being mindful that you want to switch to DCC at some point.

 

Chris, HAHAhaha...yeah, after I posted that epistle, it became obvious that I don't have anything better to do today, since I'm suffering from a bad case of the flu and stuck at home with 3ft of snow covering my driveway!

Got your PM and I'll probably respond tomorrow.

TTYL!

Bob Gilmore