Criticism

This discussion, and the tone of most of the participants, is one of the reasons this is my favorite model rr forum. I do believe it has probably the widest range of participants as regards experience in the hobby.

I do believe in diplomacy however, and believe that the soundest and sublelist is to not criticise at all. Some of the photos herein are breathtaking in their realism. If any of the posters of these realistic scenes bother to criticize other, "lesser" works - I missed it. Guess their works speak loudly enough.

However, I do not believe that we should let critics here, or anywhere, escape repercussions for their efforts. I (if alone) have noticed a subtle, yet substantive shift in the general culture. And that is that there are ever louder, ever more numerous people who "will have it their way - or else." And if that means criticizing to destruction, or infringing on what used to be considered individual rights, by passing stupid laws - then to these people - so be it.

We have all too many people who "have" or "know" what is universally right, not only for themselves, but you also. Don't you dare doubt it - they'll get a "law" passed.

So if you manage to sneak in any mean or negative criticisms here, be advised - you will be sniped at.

 

I agree that there is a shift in our society..........and it's seems to be basically "my way & the heck with you".
I'd like to see us return to a more social, civilized time....as my Grandma taught me : "if you don't have something nice to say, don't say anything @ all".
It's my opinion that the "critics" are out to make themselves feel better by making others feel worse.

 

Critiquing the Criticizer

it comes as no surprise to me that a thread on "critisism" evolved into a thread on "Critiquing the Criticizer". Well, ok, more accurately on ways to critique.

In my own mind this sums it up:
"Life is too short to drink cheap wine"
Basically - don't spend your time relating to unimportant things in a negative manner.
Yes, there are times when it can be justified that a given concept / action / issue / item is deserving of critical attention. I encourage folks to try to be aware of the wine they sip.

 

I would very rarely criticize a modeler's "work."
I might ask questions on why someone chose this or that, but I won't criticize the work itself.

I will however philosophize on general concepts in the hobby which may in a general sense criticize specific people's work, because they followed those concepts.


Here's an example:
Put down the D$%& Dullcoat people. Modelers, particularly on Diesel locos over use dullcoat when they shouldn't use it at all. Real locos come from the factory with a gloss paintjob people. It is dirt and grime that dulls it. The "correct" way to do it is to paint it glossy and then use weathering only to dull it. That way, on areas that have not been weathered, it will still reflect correctly. It is one of the easiest ways to spot a model on the best of MRs in the best of lighting, the paint is dull when it should be shiny.


That is a critique of the hobby mainstream, not a critique of a specific person. I may have caught many people with that comment and thus criticized their work, but I'm not saying "your work is inferior." I'm saying this is a logical way you should change how you do things.

 

As do I. I'm with ModuTrak because I like being pushed in my modeling abilities, and I do enjoy high fidelity prototype modeling. I'm also with an HO club that is no where near that level, but I find the group fun to hang out with. It's nice to just go round in a circle, or swith the local industries, without worrying about my GP35 shoving transistion era box cars from time to time. There's no worries, and the comraderie is what I enjoy there. I also run with an Ops oriented group from time to time, which I enjoy immensely.

I have so many different interests in the hobby that I'm open to all of it. It depends on my mood, and in the end it's about whatever makes me happy.

Quite honestly, there's modeling here that doesn't interest me. I enjoy seeing what everyone is up to, but I don't always feel a need to comment. It can be a lot of work just taking a picture, uploading it, and then posting. For those that post pics on a weekly basis. Thank you!

 

Just reading Friscobob's post.

One thing to remember too is that Model Railroading in spanning the decades has also spanned the philosophies.

The Gorre & Daphetid and the Virginian and Ohio are very very different on a philosophical level. They are both excellent work, but I'll tell you if John Allen were in the modern world posting about model railroading, his general take on it would not be popular in 2010. The Whimsy of his work is no longer the "popular."

And so criticizing models that don't follow the modern philosophy is particularly onerous.
I as I posted above don't mine criticizing status quo techniques that don't make sense to me. As that's not usually a philosophical choice as much as a learned behavior.

 

YoHo,

Re: John Allen. My first response was "Says Who"? I still have all the magazines and books I could get my hands on, with regard to John Allen. I'm not alone. I still consider his work to be a cut above the rest. He isn't the only one out there nor will he be the last. Today, there are still John Allens, out there aspiring to build those layouts of excellence. Who in their personal libraries have everything they can find not only on John Allen's layout but others.

Philosopher & philosophy 101: When did you become the philosopher of TB? I thought that was my job...grin!

Borrowing form a CO-Dep. Therapist. Learned behavior is seldom good behavior. As we usually learn from the bad behavior of our parents, friends, aunts and uncles. Good behavior has to be taught. Seldom, by example.

Wrapping it all up. Your layout is your world. You can achieve to whatever standards you set or aspire to, greater or less quality and performance. We can learn from those who went before us and gave us this gift of model railroading. Or you can be happy with a simple loo-pity loop. Quoting Jim 157, "It's your layout and you make the rules". Quoting me, "Go have some fun however, you interrupt it".

I thought a lot of John Allen's work. Nothing finer in my estimation.

 

I should qualify that statement on Allen's work to say that the "Conventional Wisdom" in the hobby, AKA what the press and luminaries generally push as the modern "Model Railroad" ethos.

Certainly, in 2010, Tony Koester's ideas hold far more sway than Allen's in the popular media.

They are not mutually exclusive for sure, but in terms of focus, the type of modelling Allen did is not thought to be popular.

Calls to model the mundane and the typical, prototypical fidelity etc etc. Whimsy is not to be overdone is what we are told is correct.

In fact, the last time Allen style work was a major focus was when the thrice Cursed Malcolm Furlow was still working in the hobby. His work might have been derivative, but it was still about whimsy and quaint and such.


I think most modelers fall somewhere inbetween the strict proto-type/lance operators and the whimsy/fancy "artistic" scene creators, but from the point of how it's presented by the "movers and shakers" Operators trumps artistry.

 

YoHo,

Who is Tony Koester. Sorry, but I don't know the name.

Truth is I don't pay much attention to today's artist, publicist and or periodicals. Everything that was or is model railroading has pretty much been laid on the table. Basically a pete and repeat of the old standards and there is little new on how to build a model railroad in the construction arena. Electronic's... is the big splash but it's absolutely worthless if you throw out the concept and standards of a well constructed layout.

John was whimsical and funny but that doesn't hardly describe the serious modeler he was. His layout was far and ahead of the average train layouts of his day.

What is unfair, is I cannot for the life of me name those who influenced him and acted as mentors to John. There are many and he gleaned many an idea, recreating them on his layout.

A lot of what we know as whimsical was staged either for friends or the MR wig wags of the time. When he got into operations and car movements he could be serious and still have fun. Ie., The laughing box he put in to give you a hoot, if you broke the rules.

He will be forever respected and held in high esteem by this Railroad Modeler.

Its all good. I just had to rattle your cage.

 

Gentlemen,

I think it's a mistake to discount John Allen or Tony Koester. They both have had a lot to offer to the hobby and thousands continue to learn from John Allen's lifetime of work and Tony Koester's ongoing contributions.

Nearly everyone you meet in this hobby has something they can teach you and something they can learn from you. To recognize that and build on it will, I believe, make a much better modeler.

 

Well said. Especially meaningful, considering it is only a pastime, is your second sentence. What they taught me is that it is actually quite alright to figure out how to have one's own fun, defined in one's own manner and terms, when pursuing a hobby. Those two gentlemen are among perhaps 20 in the history of the hobby who had a lasting influence, and it wasn't because they copied heavily, or went off and did things entirely new. They sought advice and input, developed skills, applied them to novel situations, and then devised new ways of personalizing their approach to enjoyment. It is something we can all hope to do. Blunt and cruel criticism was not one of their tools, as so many anecdotes tell us. They were gentlemen who were humble enough, and of such character, that they did not need, nor found they any pleasure, in disparaging the works of others.

 

John Allen, MC Escher, Picasso and My Parents

My father was an electronics design engineer. My mother was an artist. By the time I was 12 I could compare and contrast Picasso and MC Escher. The first time I saw a picture of the "wranglers" trying to corral a triceratops on a layout by John Allen I was 50ish. I instantly recognized the same genius.

I am not a genius and nor do I want the label for it carries with it far to great an expectation. Yesterday, as a test, I posted what what some might reasonable consider inappropriate material. It simply was out of place compared to the balance of the content of that particular thread. I'm pleasantly disappointed. No one took the bait.

My point?
Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. - oh, how trite
Most folks here are pretty decent people and won't make untoward derogatory comments unless they, well, since then never are deserved.

Critique anything I post here in any manner you wish. I have but one boon:
"If you can't take it. Don't dish it out."

 

Just as a point of clarification.

It was not my point to discredit any modeler of any era and if that was what everyone got out of my post, then I clearly did a very very poor job of communication.

first, since Rick doesn't know even though Tony is as old as the hills, Tony Koester is a model railroader, he was the editor of RMC in the late 60s/early 70s and has had a column in MR since the 1980s. "Trains of Thought.

He was a friend of Allen McClelland and as editor at RMC he was responsible for getting McClelland's work into that magazine. Koester's Allegheny Midland interchanged with the V&O and with these two railroads and his seat of "power" as editor, they popularized the concepts of proto-lance and operations. McClelland is more famous, but Koester is one of the people that made him famous.
Many model railroaders feel that Koester is rather preachy in his column and that he's to a certain extent lost his relevance since he was editor. Certainly RMC misses him as that magazine was never the same.


Now then, with that out of the way, I will try and restate what I was trying to say.

My point was that the concepts under which John Allen created, his artistic vision, were very much different from McClelland.
I'm not sure I understand what "Serious modeler" means. Serious is not a word I like to associate with my hobbies.

John Allen is an Artist, lets call him Monet, an impressionist.
Allen McClelland is an Artist, lets call him a surrealist.

They are both artists, they both do good work, but right now, the community of model railroaders in the form of the press, in the form of many NMRA ideas is touting surrealism as THE mode of choice.
That isn't a knock on John Allen, or his style. I'm just saying that right now, his style isn't En Vogue.

And the hobbiests pick up on this, We're like aficionados standing about the gallery viewing the latest works.

We are humans, and humans are flawed and one of those flaws is that we criticize what isn't trendy. And so, when people see a dinosaur wrangling scene on a layout, they criticize it, it isn't en vogue to have a dinosaur scene on a layout, that's not "Modeling the mundane.

and the other flaw that humans have is that we tend to turn uniqueness into Kitsch. It's nice that Allen had the Dinosaur on his layout, but when every modeler does the same, it's not unique, its not artistry, its just kitsch.


So, if you've gotten that far and still following, I'll restate.

There are trends in this hobby. Different concepts of what is popular.
Often, criticism takes the form of poo pooing work that is not in line with the current trend. Isn't popular. That type of criticism is what really needs to be stamped out. People need to be encouraged to find their own way and they need to learn that a trend is not a gospel.

 

Okay, so I'm relatively new to this board, but not to message boards in general... I spend a lot of time on a bunch of different boards, from local town oriented boards to Slashdot (for those of you who are tech heads)...

This is a good board from my perspective. There is little in the way of flame wars (ala Slashdot) and yet there is good discussion, almost always posed in a thoughtful and thought provoking manner (is it a Switch or is it a Turnout?)... but I digress...

What I really wanted to say here in terms of criticism is that it matters a LOT what the underlying assumptions are of the modelers posting on this board. For some, the measure is all about realism, as has been better discussed by others already. And that is what a lot of people are here. But there are other goals that people may pursue.

In my case, I'm not as interested in the realism aspects of the hobby as I am about the automation and control aspects. My goal is to build a layout that has a completely automated control system. It will sense trains and know their planned routes and act accordingly to various events such as stopping at stations and potential collisions.

As such, my need for "realism" is completely different from many other people on this board. I need something that is serviceable, not necessarily as close to reality as possible.

There are probably all kinds of other premises... some may be far more interested in operations - controlling many trains and seeing how they can keep it all working right. For them, a poorly painted box car is of little importance... I'm sure if I thought about it, I could come up with others...

Bottom line is that criticism needs to be viewed in the light of unstated assumptions on the part of both sender and receiver. And others that view such exchanges need to understand that in the light of their own unstated assumptions of what the ultimate goals are.

 

I think there's also a matter of context, which is not always current.

John Allen was great because he was SUCH an incredible contrast to the 'typical' modeler of the 1960's. He made everybody think over.

We've got those kind of folks right here in N, and right here in this forum. Think of somebody that effectively put a whole new rung in the ladder, and that slowly pull the rest of us up with them.

Ones that stick in my mind - Lance Mindheim's Monon in N scale.... wow, what that did for prototype-looking scenery and uncompressed thought in design. Right here; Rich Yourstone and the painting and weathering - I changed over to chalks with that. Chris333, who, unwittingly, dragged me into resin casting and photoetching by showing me mind-blowing 'it can be done' examples and patient teaching. in HO, Peter Sondheim's desert southwest scenery just blows me away completely.

To me, I take no real respect for the nitpickers. If you've got something better, lay it out there and show us what you mean and how you did it. If it's good, and right, you'll suddenly discover other folks are copying it because well, yeah, that guy is right, it can be done better, it looks this much better, and do it. That doesn't take criticism to change. But you really can effect change, sometimes small and sometimes big, in the scale in general.

Sometimes I feel like the last old guy out there hacking and chopping and scratchbuilding stuff in N. I won't nitpick the guys that don't, but I will try to show how so that I don't feel so darn lonely out here, and so that the last of the vendor holdouts for parts and supplies doesn't give up either! Then I see a guy like Mark (Spookshow) coming along, and the world is just a better place...

 

Inappropriate comment

I was guilty of that a day or two ago. Someone (on another forum) had a thread about HOW TO FIND ALLIGATORS (meaning the diesel) and I had the nerve to respond with a biblographic reference to articles from the last 20 years on how to model a swamp.

But it was deservedly ignored.

 

:thumbs_down:Gonna be tough to find a 'gator soon........"BP" is in the process of killin' 'em!!!

 

It's going a little OT but hobby trends and realism are interesting branches that have been mentioned.

I certainly feel the trend of late has been to greater realism and to an extent that is manufacturer led. Every new model now comes with more and sharper detail, often varied to suit the specific railroad or even road number, such as etched grilles, wire steps and other fine fittings being already installed. That puts a subtle pressure on anything seen in comparison, because if your scratchbuilt structure, boxcar or field of corn isn't similarly detailed it will be shown up by the ready-to-run item stood next to it.

Hard to avoid unless you only buy 20 year old budget stuff off ebay