Hello everyone, I'm certainly glad I found you. I'm a newbie to model RRing. I bought my first trains about a decade ago, in the past several years I've purchased some track off ebay and some cars and I think I got a MRC power supply for my birthday several years ago. A couple of years ago we were able to buy a house with more space and since then I have decided to get this stuff out of their boxes and get busy with it. I have finished my benchwork, which can be seen on my homepage JLN Line , the homepage also tells sort of what I had in mind of layout plans. Currently I'm stalled in the track layout stage. Not sure about what my minimum radius should be, nor exactly how I go about figuring that out. If I use flex track can I pretty much make it anything I want, assuming of course I make it something that the trains can operate on. I am figuring on coming in 4" from the outer edges, which would leave me with 52", does this mean that my outer track will be 26" minimum radius? Also, if you look at my page, you will see that I have open benchwork, assuming that my track will be without any inclines, I am debating whether I should use plywood everywhere except for where I plan indentations in the layout? or should I use maybe 1x3 cut to fit the track/cork roadbed? I assume that I don't need to place risers since I'm not planning on my track being raised. Am I correct on these issues? Thanks in advance.
First, let me welcome you to Trainboard Jeff! Benchwork is the most important, and it looks like you got some help! I'll start with open-face vs plywood sheet. If you are not having any grades, go with the sheet. It will allow you a better surface to work on. You might even want to look into the "pink foam" (or blue) usually comes about 1" thick - insulation foam. Works great, and you can dig it out as well as build on top of it. Use two layers if you want a river or valley. You can use scraps to build up hills. Risers aren't necessarily needed, but they will allow you to drop scenery if you would like. But I would go with the foam, a lot of peole seem to like it (have not used it myself, but seen it with great success). As for minimum radius and such, you didn't state specifically you were doing HO scale, but I am assuming such. Keep in mind that the radius of a curve is measured on the track centerlines, so you will have 4" from the track centers (close to 3.25 from the edge of the ties) to the edge if you use 26". A good rule of thumb is to make it as large as possible. Bigger locomotives and rolling stock will look and operate better on the large curves. Due to your operating space, the 50s seems like an excellent era to work in, it will let you run some shorter equipment realistically, and it will look right at home. Feel free to send anymore questions along. Everybody on this board is willing to help. Would love to see a track plan if you can get one online! Good luck with the layout, and HAVE FUN!!
Harron, Thanks for the suggestions. First let me say that I am modeling HO. I hadn't really thought about the foam insulation for a decking, but I suppose that would work quite well. Glad you approve of the benchwork, or at least what you could see from the pics I based my benchwork after the design in the book, "Practical Guide to HO Model Railroading" , I've found this book to be a great help so far. I was wondering though why you would suggest that I use mulitiple layers if I wanted have a river or a valley, I thought that was sort of the reason for building open benchwork is so that I can have these lower plains without having to build up? Am I missing something? Do you think 26" radius is enough, or should I abandon the 4" buffer so that I can gain a 28" radius? would I notice the increased radius that much? I'm working on getting my design onto the web, just haven't been successful in transferring my idea from paper to a suitable program yet. Thanks for your help!!! I love this forum, eveyone seems real friendly and more than willing to help. Thanks to all. Jeff
Well, all you'd have to do with layers is layer under the main piece (not necessarily on top - the foam is light so you can do this), this way you have your riverbed, valley floor, etc. with the open grid you have without making the ground level too high. 26" should be good, 18" is a bare minimum in HO, and 22" is usually recommended. It really depends on what you want to run. If you want to run longer steamers, diesels, and passenger cars (4-8-4s, articulateds, E units, 80' passenger coaches etc) then you want as big of a radius as possible. If you are running shorter equipment (2-8-0s, 2-8-2s, switchers, GPs, 40' & 50' freight cars, 60' & 70' passenger cars, and even some SDs) the 26" should be enough. It really depends on what you want to model. Stick with the 26, and use the "smaller" equipment. It would probably fit with the layout theme better anyway. As for transferring your paper drawing, you can scan it in and post it (if you have access to a scanner) or you could try some layout design software demos, there are many available.
Harron, I think that proverbial light bulb just went off. Even with the open benchwork I have to have a bottom somewhere, and if I understand you right I could just use the foam as the bottom between the joists on the open benchwork. It's so simple, why didn't I think of that? I understand your point on the last item, but I think I may still go ahead with a 28" radius, then my dual line inside will still be around the 26" radii. I certainly appreciate your help . I'll let you know as soon as I get the design online. Jeff
Welcome to our family here at the TrainBoard msg4jeff and assistants! Harron has given you excellent advice. In view of your assistants, maybe you are not going to be too "picky" if the rolling stock seems to look like our old Lionel trains did hangin out around corners and going over turnouts. If that is the case, then if you stay with the smaller engines and shorter cars, you "can" get away with using tighter radiused curves inorder to have more track as a means of getting away from the "oval" loop look. If you are going to go for "super-detailed realism" in all aspects, then you must stay with the largest radiused curves and make your benchwork to fit. (When I was Nathan's age, (about 100 years ago), I still had an excellent imagination, which will smooth out a lot of minor details for him. Figure your bench width this way if you want a continuous running oval or return loop: (I am just using 4" from center of track to edge so it is easy). radius" x 2 + 4" + 4" = bench width. MIN: 18 x 2 + 8" = 44" aver 26 x 2 + 8 = 60" better 30 x 2 + 8 = 68" Almost (but not all) HO equipment manufactured today "will" negotiate the (toy) standard 18" radius track, which means it will require 36" center to center just to turn a whole train around at one end of your layout so the train can go back to the other end. And, you will still have to have the 3 to 4" more benchwork on both sides. That is 42.5" minimum bench width, too far to reach over to re-rail a car on the far edge if the bench is against a wall. If you can get around all four sides of the layout, that is OK. You could reach from one side or the other. An adult can usually reach over a 30" bench to get a car, if the bench is only 30" off the floor. Nathan may have to get up on a stool or chair to reach something derailed, and could fall off or onto the table surface. The higher the table is off the floor, the less distance you can reach over without damaging something like a building that you aren't thinking about under your arm or chest. It would be an excellent idea to put a "safety fence" around the outside of the benchwork to prevent an engine from derailing and rolling off and falling to the floor, see? I use a strip of Plexiglass, because I have caught my shirt sheeve cuff on cars and toppled them by accident. I don't think you would have this problem with Leah, but us guys are clumsy occasionally.
Thanks guys for the replies. I've already learned several things from you guys. I have another question. But first I have a question for Watash? Where does that nickname come from? I knew a guy in service (AF 1984-88) whose nickname was Watash, I thought he said he got it while in SE Asia and for some reason I thought it had its origin there. Back to model RRing. I noticed in the Practical Guide to HO Model Railroading that the guy actually painted his track before laying it, he said this did two things; one it dulled the glare from the plastic cross ties and gave it a more realistic look and two, when he painted the layout design it made it easy to lay the roadbed because the layout of the track was on the plywood from the overspray. I had a guy at the hobby shop tell me that he wouldn't advise me to do that. I understand that I would have to clean the rails, but I figured you only have to clean the tops, is that right? Is it really that hard to clean? I figure I will have less than 100' total rail. Then he painted the side rails a rust color to improve the realism, what do you guys think of that? Next Question, being a newbie and all, the hobby shop also advised me against using ballast. To me ballast adds alot to the realism of the layout. Having not done this before I thought I would of course try it on some extra pieces before diving into it on my layout, but I was a little discouraged from his advise. How do you feel about it? I also thought I would use Paul Templar's advise and use wallpaper paste instead of glue, do you know of anyone who has used this method? Besides Mr Templar of course. I really appreciate your advise. I value it highly.
Painting rail is an integral part of my trackwork. I actually paint it once it is laid on the roadbed, but you can do it whenever you want. I do this so all of my solder joints are made when the rail is clean, then they get covered up by the paint and are almost impossible to see. You are right in that all you have to clean the tops of the rails (railheads). You can do this one of two ways. You can wait about half an hour for the paint to set up some and use some elbow grease and a Bright Boy to clean it off. This is abrasive, and some people don't like to scratch up their rails. Or, as soon as you finish, take a rag with some thinner and wrap it over your finger. Run this over the rail head lightly and the paint should come right off without disturbing the rest of the rails. You can paint the sides of the rail again later if you so desire, but it is not in any way necessary. Ballast is also an important part of a realistic look. I use Woodland Scenics products, including their Scenic Cement (basically diluted white glue). The key to ballasting is the "wet water" or alcohol. Make sure you absolutlely soak the ballast in it so your adhesive spreads thoroughly as you add it. You will likely have to clean your track again after this process, using an abrasive style or a track cleaning car. With both ballast and painting you have to be very careful of your switches (probably the reason your LHS advised against doing either). Paint can dry up and make them stick, unable to move. Work your points back and forth a few times while the paint is drying to make sure they don't stick. If they start to stick, a little thinner can usually loosen them up. Ballast is the same way (you can glue the points) and you can also get loose ballast in the way so they can't close. I recommed keeping the ballast away from the moving areas of your switches until you feel more comfortable with the process, then slowly try and get the rest. And that is the key. SLOWLY - Take your time doing this, and don' be in a rush. This way you can stop, look, and ask questions to make sure you are headed in the right direction and you like the results you see.
Well I don't know if you are still looking for advice or opinions, but I'll put some words down 'cause it's early and I am a little bored at work I've only been in the hobby for a little while, so most of the issues you're asking about are things that I have just had to figure out. I've got some pictures and info on my website at http://www.daveheinzel.com/trains/index.html. As far as a scenery base- I used (and would recommend) the insulation foam. It's great because you don't have to drill holes to insert things like trees and fenceposts and powerlines, etc. Also it's easy to cut, it's lightweight, and you won't need much of it 'cause your layout is about the size of mine. Also if you don't have a pickup truck, you can buy a 4' by 8' sheet and break it in half at the parking lot of the hardware store. Then it'll fit in your car! I painted my tracks all by hand before I put them down. If I had an airbrush I would have used it, but I don't own one. I used regular acrylic paints, thinned slightly with water so that the black ties and the rails wouldn't end up the same exact shade of brown/rust. Then I cleaned the railheads with a brightboy. It was a tedious task to hand paint all the rails, but I painted them while watching tv with my girlfriend, so you won't have to alienate yourself from the world for hours on end. I don't know if you've laid track or come up with a plan yet, but one thing I would recommend (because I failed to do this myself) is to leave as much room as you can between the edge of the table and the closest rails. 4" won't let you put much scenery in there, but it's better than the 3" I have in places. I know it'd mean a tighter radius, but it seems like in model railroading, there's always things like that that you have to weigh against each other. I wish I had more room on the edge so I could plant a few trees and weeds to look through as my train goes by. Anyway, good luck on the layout- can't wait to see more pics as it progresses. Dave
msg4jeff, you are thinking of a Japanese term: Watashi which means "friend". My Dad was raised with the Cherokee indians at Cordell, Oklahoma, and my Grandfather called me "Watash", which stuck all my life. Even my wife calls me Watash. As I remember it was a term meaning Old White Buffaloe, and referred to their term for Old Medicine Man, or Old Wise One. I used to pester him with questions about how the indians did things as well as how Grandpa made the furniture and woodwork he did in the Court Houses where he hand made the Judge's bench and Jury box bannisters etc. I can still make arrow heads today!
Great info and description of ballasting. Has anyone used Kato Unitrack and ballasted it? How did it work out if you did and did you just paint the rails prior to ballasting and let the ballast cover up any overspray on the integral road bed? Thanks, Russ
Don't know how Paul Templer uses his wallpaper paste trick, but this is what I did. Buy wallpaper paste in dry powder form. Sift to a tea strain. Mix 1 part wallpaper paste powder with 3 parts of Woodland Scenics balast. Spread the mixture between and along the rails. Spray the mixture with wet water till it soaks. Wait 24 houres and your balast is ready and rock hard. Then I mix 50% woodglue with 50% water and add some grimmy black (acryllic)to make the mixture greyish. With this mixture I paint the balast to make it look aged. This is what I did on a 1' by 6' switching layout and I 'll deffenitly do it the same way on my next layout that I build. Paul
Jeff, Leave it up to some guy to come in and recommend something different, well that's me. With kids, to keep them interested, why not give them a portion of the layout that is their place. You will find out they become very interested, even more than now, in what you are doing. It does leave you open to "Whens the layout going to be done, Dad!" but that's a small price to pay. What will happen if you follow this recommendation is that you will find they probably want to model contemporary stuff, that they see day to day. But even in planning the layout, bring em in. Maybe let them browse through the Walther's catalogue to help decided on structures and theme's. As for your local hobby shop not recommending ballast - the best advise I can give here is take all your LHS's comments with a grain of salt. Of course you use ballast, and paint your rails (if you want the "full" experience - most fun). As far as ownership of your layout, you have the rest of your life after the kids leave to do whatever you want with your layout, and by then you will be so skilled it is disgusting, so you'll want a new layout anyway. So if you can, get your kids involved in all aspects of the hobby, I promise you it will be magical. Also take them rail-fanning, so they can get to see the new stuff out there. rail-fanning with kids is great entertainment and cheap. You go rail-fan, hit Mc Donald's on the way home, and they think life is great. This kind of adventure brings you and your kids very close together. [ 24. February 2003, 20:29: Message edited by: rsn48 ]
Hey Guys, Thanks for all the great feedback. This is just awesome to know that there is such a large group of guys (& maybe even gals) out there that are willing to help someone who knows so very little. I really do appreciate all of your comments! Dave, thanks for sharing your website with us. I enjoyed every page. Your weathering is really terrific. As I was looking at the scrap car I had to go back and take a second look at your text to figure out which one was real and which wasn't. I've bookmarked your page and will definitely visit from time to time. I was pretty much sold on Harron's idea of using the foam as a base, he said he hadn't ever used it though, I'm glad you stepped up and showed some pics of just how you have! Thanks! Watash, I guess it's simply coincidental that one of the meanings of your nickname is "Old Wise One", but from some of the posts attributed to you the name fits quite well. Hopefully, as I progress in my model railroading I will find that I will know you not only as Watash, but also Watashi!! Completely Nuts; thanks for the input, I'll test both methods to see which I like best, in the meantime here is the link to Paul Templar's page that describes his wallpaper paste method- Templar's Method RSN48: Great advice! Don't know if you read my page, but the opportunity to do this with my children (& maybe even my wife) is one thing that I am truely hoping for. I think modeling can teach us all something...sharing, patience, longsuffering, patience and just how to have fun together without having to go to an amusement park or spend $200 at a ballgame, oh yeah....did I mention patience??? My son (he's 5) keeps asking me already when it's gonna be done. Hopefully by the time he's 15 or 16 he and his sister and I will have taken over the whole basement! Well guys from this topic I have decided to: <ul>[*]Use foam insulation [*]paint my tracks [*]ballast my tracks [*]try to keep the 4" from track to layout edge <even if I have to expand a foot [*]probably for sure use a wallpaper paste method to ballast [*]Have lot's of fun with my kids, maybe to the point of dedicating an area for them Next question is: What is DCC? I have an MRC 2000, which I believe is DC. I've never heard of DCC.
Forget my last question concerning DCC. I found the forum on it. That should keep me busy for awhile. I'll ask more questions later after I read more.
MRC 2000 is dcc, your already dcc ready. Now get some loco's with decoder's and your away to the races. [ 25. February 2003, 20:20: Message edited by: rsn48 ]
Rick, I was wrong, I don't have an MRC 2000. What I have is an MRC Locomotion 2500. I didn't think it could possibly be DCC because it's been new in the box for almost a decade. I got it out for the first time less than a month ago. Anyway, it's DC but that's what I've got so I'm gonna roll with it. You guys got me hopping. I went out tonight to Lowes and bought a little lumber and some 2" polystyr insulation. I was gonna buy the styrofoam but it was $16.00 a sheet, I got 2 sheets of this polystyr for that price. I think it should work just fine. I'm a little money conscious because everytime I come back to the house with something my wife wants to know how much the trip to Lowe's cost. So far I haven't been out to much, I already had all the lumber for my initial shot at the benchwork. That brings me to my latest change of plans. As I read things about space I decided to extend my benchwork out another 2 feet, and I made that change tonight, I'm also seriously considering adding another 8 inches to the width (bringing the total width to 68"), that would allow me the 30" radius and I'd still have 4" cushion on each side. I'm almost sure I'll do that. The only problem I foresee is reaching the very middle of the table. What do you guys think? I count your advice very worthwhile and I'd weigh it heavily. I would appreciate your comments. Have a great evening. Jeff
msg4jeff, Because of an accident a visitor caused, I once made a parking lot beside a building to patch the hole through the table top when he fell through. A piece of 3/4" thick plywood was sanded smooth on the edges and slightly rounded off so no splinters, and painted dark gray and striped like parking places. The pad was supported below on two 1/4's that were fastened to the benchwork, and had a leg to the floor between them. It was just right to put your hand on to lean way over and reach the far track and retrieve derailed cars. I made several more, one was the yard to a house, covered with a small sheet of the Life-Like's green grass paper. I knew where each was, but no one else noticed them, since they blended into the scenery ok. I had a small step stool that folded up, which gave me the added reach by using the pads to hold my weight, see? Now I prepare these as I build, if I need them.
I grabbed my old 1996 Walther's HO catalogue (I'm now in N scale) and looked up the price of the MRC 2500 Locomotion cab. It listed for $73. It is 2 amps strong. I looked up the MRC 2000 dcc unit and it listed in the year 2000 for $170. Why not see if your LHS will buy your old but untouched MRC 250 for $40, or sell it on ebay. And look for a used MRC 2000 for around $50. I believe the MRC 2000 was either 2.5 amps or 3 amps strong. So if you can pull of that deal, $10 will get you into dcc. And I always say "the worst dcc is better than the best dc."
Hey Rick, I was out checking out the prices of the DCC units today. I had a guy try to explain some of the differences to me. I wasn't looking to forward to all the wiring , sounds like with DCC I should be able to bypass some of it. Anyway, I'm looking, I don't like the prices much but I believe that's the way I'll go. Today my son and I dismantled some of our benchwork and began adding on. We increased the width by 8", this will allow me the full 30" turns with 4" of available space outside of that on each side. We also increased the length by 2', I'm not real sure why I only went 6' to begin with, but I decided I might as well go 8' now and not wish I did later Here are four pics of the final (I think) benchwork, we even cut out some foam tonight, this made my son real happy. He was trying to figure out how trains were going to go across those boards, now it seems to be coming together....at least a little. benchwork update 3-1-03 So I felt like this past week since meeting some of you guys I have made some real progress.....THANKS
