Hello all, When it comes to locos I'm a pretty mid level guy. Everything I have is Life Like, Atlas, or late 90s Con-Car. Never owned a Kato. I've had really good luck with this type of engines. With a few exceptions, they go round and round my little pike really nicely. When a couple of threads started about the Broadway Limited Imports E-6's I checked out the website and decided to get a AB pair. I thought it would be neat to have a loco with sound on the DC Birkel Sub. Man, the price was high, but Again, they have sound that worked with DC and are DCC ready when and if I make the switch. They also looked really nice. (not to mention the fact that I wanted to treat myself to a the-divorce-is-final treat) So, cut to the chase... they came in at my Local Train Store and I rushed home to put them on the track. I turned the nob on my power pack... and nothing happened. The light turned on as I ramped up the power and then as I approached full power, it turned back off. It didn't move a scale inch. I was a bit crestfallen. I was on lunch from work and had to go back so I wasn't able to mess with it much. After work I got playing with it. I can get it to go about one out of five times if I ramp the power very very slowly, I listen for a little buzz, when I hear that I stop turning the dial and it will do the start up routine and then usually get going. I think at the most, I've got it to do about two laps around my small layout before it just stops out of the blue. Tonight my plan is to clean the track very thoroughly and see if that helps. I'm using pretty low end power packs -- two Railpower 1370's -- I think about $36 a piece. I have a feeling you guys are going to tell me that's the problem. I blew my train budget for the next couple months on these locos, so the prospect of new power packs or the DCC upgrade is pretty frighting, but let me know what you think. I'm pretty confident in my wiring. Both the A and B unit act the same, so I think I can rule out a "bad unit". Any thoughts would be most welcome. Dan
What DC power pack are you using? Not all can operate these models directly (especially the older ones). For those that can't, one of these would be required - Cheers, -Mark
Not sure what the problem might be, but if you'd like we can test it on my layout which is DCC and see if we can rule out the chip being at fault. Should be around most of the weekend. PM with your info. Allen...
I'm using a pretty low end one, a Railpower 1370 http://www.modelrectifier.com/search/product-view.asp?ID=1291 Does the DC Master you suggest help it run or just allow you to mess with some of the DCC features? Alen -- I might have to take you up on that... been meaning to PM you anyway.
I have a set of BLI E7 locomotives. When I first got them, they were the balkiest things I have ever owned. One of them turned out to have a bad chip, and, to BLI's credit, when I brought this up in an email they immediately offered to either fix it if I sent it in, or to just simply send a replacement chip (it's a real easy swap out since it fits into a plug). I took the latter option to save some time and shipping. The next problem had to do with the blackening they put on the wheels. I had to finally just run these for a while on one of those wire brush cleaner thingies until the wheel treads were shiny. Once I did this, my problems went away, mostly. The next problem I had was that one loco was quite a bit slower than the other. I ran them around the layout loop at my club separately and in both directions for most of a work evening once and over the hour and a half or so they evened out. I think it just took a while for the mechanisms to settle in. These are the pickiest of my sound locomotives for clean track. DCC signals require cleaner track than DC, and DCC signals feeding sound decoders seem to be even pickier. Even pickier than that are BLI DCC decoders with sound chips. But, they run just fine now on the Digitrax DCC system at the club. My take on BLI, after mine and those of several others in my club is that they look great and eventually will work just fine but you need to do get rid of the wheel blackening on the treads, make sure your decoders are not faulty, and run them separately for a while to get them to break in... and clean the &%#*( out of your track.
Both. I used to have a Railpower 1300 and couldn't run my BLI engines with it at all (lights and sound but no motor), so I suspect that's the problem you're running into as well. Cheers, -Mark
The good news with the E6's is that the wheels are not blackened. Also, additional pickup has been provided (as compared to the E7s and E8s) in the way of wheelback wipers. The end result is locos that are much less finicky about dirty track than were BLI's earlier diesels. Cheers, -Mark
Dan, Looks like Mark might be right, here is what I found on BLI's web page: Industry-Leading SOUND Features: [TABLE] [TR] [TD]• [/TD] [TD="width: 1116"]Operates in DC & DCC (use DCMaster for DC Sound)[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD="width: 15"]•[/TD] [TD="width: 1116"]Record & Play Operation - Records and plays back sounds and movements once or repeatedly for automatic operation [/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD="width: 15"]•[/TD] [TD="width: 1116"]16-bit Sample Rate for exceptional high frequency sound clarity [/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD="width: 15"]•[/TD] [TD="width: 1116"]Playback Whistle for multiple whistle lengths and patterns [/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD="width: 15"]•[/TD] [TD="width: 1116"]Choice of 3 selectable Horns[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD="width: 15"]•[/TD] [TD="width: 1116"]Alternate Whistle / Horn where applicable for locomotive with air horn and steam whistle - both the main whistle and alternate can be easily played[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD="width: 15"]•[/TD] [TD="width: 1116"]Adjustable bell ringing interval for faster or slower bell[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD="width: 15"]•[/TD] [TD="width: 1116"]Numerous user-mappable functions with available keys[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD="width: 15"]•[/TD] [TD="width: 1116"]Johnson Bar Sound at Direction Change[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD="width: 15"]•[/TD] [TD="width: 1116"]Passenger Station Ambient Sounds - Controlled with Function Key[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD="width: 15"]•[/TD] [TD="width: 1116"]Freight Yard Ambient Sounds - Controlled with Function Key[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD="width: 15"]•[/TD] [TD="width: 1116"]Lumber Yard Ambient Sounds - Controlled with Function Key[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD="width: 15"]•[/TD] [TD="width: 1116"]Farm Ambient Sounds - Controlled with Function Key[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD="width: 15"]•[/TD] [TD="width: 1116"]Crew Radio Communications - Controlled with Function Key[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD="width: 15"]•[/TD] [TD="width: 1116"]Maintenance Yard Ambient Sounds - Controlled with Function Key[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD="width: 15"]•[/TD] [TD="width: 1116"]Demo Mode for display and demonstrations[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD="width: 15"]•[/TD] [TD="width: 1116"]Grade Crossing Automatic Signal[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD="width: 15"]•[/TD] [TD="width: 1116"]Simple Programming with Integral DCC Decoder[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD="width: 15"]•[/TD] [TD="width: 1116"]Automatic Forward / Reverse Signal - When activated, stopping triggers and stop whistle toot. When moving forward from a stopped position, toots twice. When moving in reverse. toots three times.[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD="width: 15"]•[/TD] [TD="width: 1116"]Chuff sound intensity varies with load[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD="width: 15"]•[/TD] [TD="width: 1116"]Individually adjustable sound volumes for each effect[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD="width: 15"]•[/TD] [TD="width: 1116"]EZ Reset Button for quick return to factory default settings[/TD] [/TR] [/TABLE] I think the DCC master only allows you to play with the sounds through a DC system. " Features DC Master is an analog control box for DC users. It is used to activate all of the sound features the BlueLine and Paragon2 Series engines have to offer. No power supply comes with this product." However if your locos are having the same problems running with or without sound, then I bet it's your power supply. Your power packs may not be putting out enough power. Although they say the 1370 has 18VA, we need to see what the max output of DC is and see what gauge or how heavy your wiring is. Could be a number of things, but we can check you locos on my DCC layout and start there. Let me know, Allen...
Spookshow, I am glad to hear that they no longer have that horrible wheel blackening crud. That stuff has caused a lot of problems with the E7s and E8s around here. My E6s (yes, despite all that I ordered a set of MILW "Fast Fifteens") aren't here, yet. I was just looking at your site about some notes on steam locomotives. Adam
I think BLI learned their lesson with the E7's. Their PA's and PB's didn't have wheel-blackening either. Cheers, -Mark
I'm pretty sure the DC Master box also allows older DC power packs to actually run Paragon2-equipped engines (in addition to just being able to play with the bells and whistles). Or at least that's my recollection from back when I contacted BLI about the problems I was having running an E7 with my Railpower 1300. If there's any question, just give them a call or shoot them an email. I've found their customer support to be first rate. If it turns out that you're SOL with the 1370, I can confirm that my MRC Tech 4 power pack has no problems running the E6s. Tech 3's reportedly work with them as well. This might be an ideal opportunity for you to upgrade anyway - the newer power supplies we have nowadays make DC operations a real pleasure. Cheers, -Mark
Mark, I'm sorry, I stand corrected. The DC master will allow you to run and adjust any of the DCC CV's I did some digging and found the manual online, here's the link. http://www.broadway-limited.com/support/manuals/DCMaster Instruction Manual.pdf So I bet the problem has to do with the amount of power needed to run the loco and sound. Dan, Either way, we can still test it on the layout if you'd like, let me know. Allen...
I checked all the manuals (locomotive and DC Master) and couldn't find anything about being able to use the DC Master to run a locomotive using a power pack that couldn't run it otherwise. So, it could be that I got that wrong (wouldn't be the twelfth time today). The locomotive manual does say that you need at least 9 volts of DC power to get an E6 moving, so if Dan's 1370 can't manage that, that could very well be the reason he's having problems. I think I'll drop BLI a line just to pin down what's the what here. I don't want my encyclopedia pages dispensing any bum steer type info... Cheers, -Mark
It is dirty power from his power supply. The Railpower series from MRC use pulse power for better slow speed control. The pulse power spikes get confused buy the decoder as a DCC signal so it doesn't know what to do. Voltage output level is fine, you just need a way to filter out the pulse power spikes. I don't know if a couple capacitors on the track power side would filter it enough or not.
Hi Dan, I share your frustration. I had a similar problem with an N scale E-7 that I tried to run using an MRC Tech II 2800 dual cab power pack. It ran terrible, speeding up then slowing down, with the sound cutting on and off and loss of control of the headlight and mars light. I contacted BLI by phone (hard to do because their service department is only there part time), and the technician advised me that the Paragon sound units were very sensitive to pulse power used on most power packs sold in the USA. I told him I purchased this loco to run on my T-Track modules which are not only DCC, but many times will be set up as DC, for simplicity's sake, and I needed it to be able to run on DC or DCC power. He said I should do a hard reset of the soundboard and then use the BLI DC Master controller connected to my DC power pack, which would filter the pulses coming from it, and at the same time give me control over the sound functions. I had to remove the shell in order to do the hard reset, because there is a push button mounted on the board that must be pressed during the process. A soft reset using a control signal from a DCC system wasn't successful at all (he had said it probably wouldn't work), and in fact, I had to do the hard reset procedure several times for it to take. The headlight is still messed up, in forward direction the headlight runs on "dim" and changes to bright when the loco is in reverse. I must say that the service technician was helpful, knowledgeable, and very nice, he even sent me a Master Controller to try out, maybe he can do the same for you since you don't have a DCC system. I have some BLI locos equipped with sound in other scales, using both the original QSI and BlueLine sound decoders, and the QSI decoders have given me the least trouble of all 3 BLI types. The QSI's were Version 6 boards from the first releases, and have since been upgraded with the Version 7 upgrade chips. I also have a couple of locos equipped with Tsunami sound boards and one with Lok Sound. My first preference is for the Tsunami, followed by the QSI (v.7) and LokSound, with the BlueLine next and Paragon II last. The Blueline unit is hard to program because it has both a decoder and a separate sound board, and I have found that with my SPROG II programmer, computer, and JMRI's DecoderPro software, I must program the two separately, which is a real pain. My negative experience with the Paragon unit has soured me on this type of decoder to the point where it is unlikely I will buy any more locos equipped with it. Good luck with your loco, Bill in FL
I am not familiar with that particular MRC pack. Is there any switch for turning the pulse power 'OFF'? That may help. As others have mentioned, pulse power doesn't really work with DCC.
Everyone -- Thanks so much for all the info here. I'm 95% certain it's a power supply issue at this point. There are no switches for pulse power on my packs. This weekend I went over to Bendtracker1's DCC layout and tested the locos. The A unit ran like a charm. The B unit shorted out his system. So, I'll be calling BLI and/or sending back the B unit. I'll be very interested to see if the BLI DC Master controller actually does "clean up" the power. If it does, BLI really should put that in their literature, they'd probably sell a few more units. It seems to be my solution. Cheaper than buying two new controllers or going DCC. I can get the A to run, but it's very touchy. I have to turn the dial slooooowly and when I hear it start up-- freeze. Then it will get going and if I'm nice and delicate I can adjust the speed a little before it stops. Not the ideal for any loco especially one this price. This experience has made me take a look at my wiring. I never built the control panel. I temporarily wired one controller to one side of the double track main and the other to the other. I can run trains in a circle and I'm happy. But it's time to get this thing wired up permanent. There's a bit of a week link in the chain:
That picture is just scarry.....fix that. You really could have some low voltage issues with that nightmare of a connection.
It sounds like BLI doesn't want to commit one or the other as far as whether or not a DC Master box will allow older DC power supplies to run their Paragon2 decoders. The tech support guy I talked to told me "It's possible, but I can't guarantee that". He went on to say that the vast majority of "dead on track" problems with Paragon2 locos (running in analog mode) ultimately turn out to be caused by DC power supply "voltage spikes". Dunno if that means pulsed power or not? Cheers, -Mark
I'm no electrician, but it sounds like the spikes are causing the problems. Dan mentioned several times that if he S-L-O-W-L-Y increases the power on his 1370's most of the time it will run. If it's too much, too fast then the units just stops. To me that indicates a problem with the power packs or like what Skipgear said earlier "It is dirty power from his power supply. The Railpower series from MRC use pulse power for better slow speed control. The pulse power spikes get confused buy the decoder as a DCC signal so it doesn't know what to do." Also the wiring needs some attention as well. I emailed Dan this morning and told him that if he buys two newer decent DC packs and the DC Master module [providing this takes care if the problems] he will be laying out not much less than what it would cost him to make the jump into a starter DCC system. But that is a decision that he will have to make. Allen...
