Hello all... new here glad to 'be aboard'... I have a question for all those familiar with ATSF ALCO's... Try as I might, I've not been able to find a photo of an 'as-delivered' ATSF ALCO PA/PB 'L-A-B lash-up... My question is this... would both of the cab units in this lash-up have had the same unit number paInted on the side of the car body? I understand that they were deleivered, for the most part, in a 'L-A-B' set... so, would the set '52L-52B (B-unit booster)-and 52A (trailing cab unit) have the large block numeral '52' on BOTH the cab unit sides? Thanks in advance, Bruce
Sorry..need to be more specific... Would both the cab units...the L and the A unit, have the same '52' in large numerals, on black 'block' field...on the car body side? Bruce
Car body side, the front number boards could be changed to reflect the train number. Edit: Whoops, missed the actual question. My Bad.
One of the photos in this bibliography may answer your question. #51, detailing MR May93 p.132 diagram _Iron Horses of the Santa Fe Trail_ p.D-105 #51 _Santa Fe 1940-1971 in color, Vol.4 p._77 _SF Streamliners; Chiefs & Tribesmen_ p.51 _Warbonnet_ 3Q95 p.17,19; 1Q96 p.21 pix _Iron Horses of the Santa Fe Trail_ p.439 pix _ModRRer_ Aug93 p.126 detailing notes,proto pix _ModRRer_ May93 p.132 pix at Siberia, Cal. 1946 _Warbonnet_ 4Q 1998 p.8 Alco bldrs photo _ModRRer_ May 93 p.134 "re-engined" _Warbonnet_ 1Q2001 p.1 ATS shoe p.21 #51C _Santa Fe 1940-1971 in color_ vol.4 p.123 #51 ex-PA re-engined "Christine"; note 51L re-engined in 1955 _Santa Fe 1940-1971 in color, Vol.4 p._108 pix, _RMC_ Sept67 p.6 _Warbonnet_ 4Q96 p.14,15,22 #51L,A,B on display,1946 _Warbonnet_ 3Q95 p.17,19 at Pasadena,1946. _Warbonnet_ 1Q 96 p.21 #51L-#55L train "San Diegan" Oceanside, Cal 1967 _SF Trackside w/ Bill Gibson_,__ p.40 #51 ¾ front ca.1950 Warbonnet 2ndQ 05 p.28 #51 re-engined 1959 ¾ front view Warbonnet 2ndQ 05 p.40 #52 _SF Streamliners; Chiefs & Tribesmen_ p.50 _Santa Fe in the Lone Star State_ vol.1 p.29,84 #53 in gold paint _Santa Fe 1940-1971 in color, Vol.4 p._1,126-7 on Calif Special crossing Tx state line at Farwell TX 1965 _Santa Fe in the Lone Star State_ vol.1 p.72 on San Francisco Chief at Amarillo 1967 p.87 sub for motor car on "Cavern" run _Warbonnet_ 4Q2000 p.10 at Galeburg IL 1948 Warbonnet 4Q02 p.19 #53 on “Chief” Warbonnet 4Q-2007 p.25 #53 ABA on “Chief” early 1950s Warbonnet 4Q-2007 p.25 #54 _RMC_ May67 p.23 #54 on #3/4 (unnamed mail train) Newton, KS 1967 _SF Trackside w/ Bill Gibson_,__ p.39 on Angelo at Ft Worth Station 1964 _Santa Fe in the Lone Star State_ vol.1 p.56 #55 _Mod RRer_ Oct96 p.53 _SF Streamliners; Chiefs & Tribesmen_ p.51,52 _Route of the Warbonnets_ p.169 pix,Los Angeles Union Sta throat 1949 _Warbonnet_ 4Q 1998 p.9 #55L-51L on train "San Diegan" Encinitas, Cal 1967 _SF Trackside w/ Bill Gibson_,__p.40 at Oceanside, Cal 1967 p.40 on Angelo 1964 _Santa Fe in the Lone Star State_ vol.1 p.58 on Calif Spec 1964 _Santa Fe in the Lone Star State_ vol.1 p.58 on Golden Gate Warbonnet1stQ 05 p.39 new 1947 Warbonnet 2ndQ 05 p.23 #56 _RMC_ May66 p.25 _Pacific Rail News_ Oct96 p.34 _AT&SF_ Vanishing Vistas vol.1: 8th picture _SF Streamliners; Chiefs & Tribesmen_ p.53 #57 _Santa Fe 1940-1971 in color, Vol.4 p._71 #57L on train "Grand Canyon" Shopton Yard/Fort Madison, IA 1957 _SF Trackside w/ Bill Gibson_,__ p.36 #57L on San Francisco Chief at Amarillo 1967 _Santa Fe in the Lone Star State_ vol.1 p.87 #58 _SF Streamliners; Chiefs & Tribesmen_ p.55 _Route of the Warbonnets_ p.175-6 _Prototype Modeler_ NovDec83 p.36 _Santa Fe in the Lone Star State_ vol.1 p.64 #58L in 1967 _Warbonnet_ 4Q 1998 p.10 on Dallas Chf at White Rock Station #59 _Santa Fe 1940-1971 in color, Vol.4 p._38 _Route of the Warbonnets_ p.51 diagram class #59 _Iron Horses of the Santa Fe Trail_ p.D-105 _Santa Fe in the Lone Star State_ vol.1 p.71, 85, 90 #61 after wreck. Dec65 pix. _Warbonnet_ 4Q 1998 p.11 SanFran Chief 1963 _Santa Fe in the Lone Star State_ vol.1 p.55 #62 _Santa Fe Diesels & Cars_ p.12 _Iron Horses of the Santa Fe Trail_ p.439 #64 _Pacific Rail News_ Oct96 p.36 nose-on view Warbonnet 2Q-2007 p.30 #66 _Santa Fe 1940-1971 in color, Vol.4 p._69 _AT&SF_ Vanishing Vistas vol.1: 14th picture _Iron Horses of the Santa Fe Trail_ p.439 pix in 1965, _Warbonnet_ 2Q97 p.7 #67 _SF Streamliners; Chiefs & Tribesmen_ p.104 _Route of the Warbonnets_ p.43 _Iron Horses of the Santa Fe Trail_ p.439 at FtW 17th St engine terminal 1959 _Santa Fe in the Lone Star State_ vol.1 p.34 head-on 1968 Warbonnet 2ndQ 05 p.29 side view, front half. Modeling RRs of the 1950s special MR issue 2005 p.13 #68L on Calif Special crossing Oyster Creek at Sugarland _Santa Fe in the Lone Star State_ vol.1 p.90 68 nose w train #190 Denver-La Junta connection at Devine Col. depot, 1960 Warbonnet 2Q-2010 p.10 #69 overhead view _Vintage Rails_ Fall95 p.81 pix, _AT&SF_ Vanishing Vistas vol.1: cover & 8th picture _SF Streamliners; Chiefs & Tribesmen_ p.54 #70 _Santa Fe 1940-1971 in color, Vol.4 p._18 _Santa Fe: Steel Rails thru Calif._ p.112 _Iron Horses of the Santa Fe Trail_ p.415 3/4 rear view, _Warbonnet_ 2Q97 p.17 at LAUPT America's Colorful Railroads (Ball) p.197 at KCMO Union Station Dec 1967 Warbonnet 4Q02 p.31 #71 prize model, Warbonnet 3Q-2008 p.26 #72 _Santa Fe 1940-1971 in color, Vol.4 p._35 straight on nose, _Trains_ Apr96 p.42 #73 _Santa Fe 1940-1971 in color, Vol.4 p._46 pix in 1958 _Trains_ Feb97 p.17 #73L at Argentine, KS 1964 _SF Trackside w/ Bill Gibson_,__ p.37 #74 _SF Streamliners; Chiefs & Tribesmen_ p.100 #74 (ex 58B) 1968 pix _Warbonnet_ 4Q 1998 p.10 #74L as power used on "California Special" (not shown) at Clovis 1966 _SF Trackside w/ Bill Gibson_, __p.37 #74 Warbonnet 4Q 06 p.2 #74 on mail & express Warbonnet 3Q-2007 p.39 #75 _Santa Fe 1940-1971 in color, Vol.4 p._4,46 side view, 3 units _Warbonnet_ 4Q96 p.24 #75L as power used on "Angelo" (not shown) at Fort Worth 1966 _SF Trackside w/ Bill Gibson_, __p.37 at Argentine, KS, 1967 p.38 at KCMO Union Station Dec 1967 Warbonnet 4Q02 p.31 #76 _Santa Fe 1940-1971 in color, Vol.4 p._47 last run Golden Gate,Richmond CA 1965, _Warbonnet_ 4Q 1998 p.9 w California Special at Lubbock westbound 1967 _Santa Fe in the Lone Star State_ vol.1 p.88 #78 on San Francisco Chief near Amarillo _Santa Fe in the Lone Star State_ vol.1 p.9 in temporary freight service, Amarillo Jr. Yard 1959 p.35 on California Special p.89 #78 on railfan excursion, nose view at Hilliard Warbonnet 2Q-2009 p.1 #78 nose & ¾ views 1966 Warbonnet 2Q-2009 p.29
I appreciate the bibliography list, but sadly, I don't have access to any of those publications... I do have over 150 images of Santa Fe ALCO's in my library...ranging from 1947 thru 1971...through all of the 'modifications'...but none of them (the ones with the 'as-delivered' L-A-B lashups are of the angle sufficient to show both Cab units clearly enough to identify the large block number on the side) Also, I was under the impression that Santa Fe did not use their Diesel numberboards to identify the train number, but to identify the locomotive number...the ALCO PA units had small 'side-mounted' numberboards...(like the E6 and FT units)...these didn't seem to have ever been used on the PA's, according to my photo references...rather, Santa Fe installed a centrally mounted cab roof streamlined numberboard fairing which duplicated the unit number...late photos of E6 units show a 'similar' modification, although the E6 side numberboards did, as delivered, display the unit number; these (the numberplates) were, apparently, removed after the roof-mounted numberboard fairing was installed...not sure...I could be mistaken on this... perhaps someone here could help with a pic? Thanks again, Bruce
Actually you don't need a picture I can describe exactly from the book ,ALCO Official Color Photography by Walther Appel the following.Neither end unit has a small letter "L" nor "A" in the center yellow field in front under the headlights but BOTH units DID have the same number in the numberboard on the side that lit up. The whole 3 unit set was considered a single engine for the most part from Alco in this case it was #51( which considered it an A-B-A set loco).Pages 18 and 19 show a nice 3/4 very from above.These photos have not been reproduced elsewhere by the way and which states these were taken in 1946! Also Alco put that numberboard on the roof above the cab.The E6 numberboard on the roof never seemed to be removed in any photos I've seen up until their end.
THANKS! Rustymailman, Thanks for the info!... it seems logical that the cab units in the set would have the same 'side-mounted' number in the big numberboard placard...but none of my photos of 'sets' could substantiate it!...all of my other photos show mixed units... And thanks for the info on the centered ATSF numberboard...hadn't realized that ALCO installed that for Santa Fe... The reason I was so interested in this topic involved not wanting to 'change' a number on one of my Kato PA units... I was able to find and purchase 2 ATSF KATO PA's from the second Kato release of Santa Fe units. These are 'drop-in' decoder friendly, but, more importantly, have a much improved paint scheme since their first release...kick plates and other details are represented, and the red on the warbonnet is a much nicer color, more 'orange' and much less 'dark red'...they tend to match the paint on the F units a little better than the first release. IMO, they seem a little 'faded', which is what I want; my modelled era is the mid-to-later 50's. If I had been able to find and purchase the PA-PB set from this same release I wouldn't have concerned myself with this info (the PA unit in the PA-PB set has a different number than the single PA release). So many photos of A-B-A lashups show differently numbered Cab units. And, although it wouldn't be difficult to renumber one of my units at all, (Microscale makes agreat sheet!) the numbers on the microscale sheet are much bolder and brighter than the numbers Kato paint....I'd have to pre-weather the decals and tone them down before applying...ehhhh....picky, I know...but I'd rather spend my limited hobby time on the tons of other things needing to be done! Thanks again, and if anyone has a line on that second Kato PA-PB set, I'd still be interested! Bruce
It has been my understanding that during this time frame, the Santa Fe was still keeping like numbered units together as "single locomotives". By the mid 60's all bets are off and any combination was likely on the trains where they were used. I remember a rag tag assembly of cab units running elephant style pulling the California Special out of Houston in the late 60's.
Hi Russell, The Pentrex video, "Railfanning Sou Cal in the 1950's" shows an A-B-A set at Caliente on the Tehachapi line...two different cab numbers...I assumed the same thing as well...they, ATSF, did their best to keeps these sets 'intact'...so seeing the Pentrex clip only confused me even more... I definitely want to keep the units 'clean'....before ATSF added all the nose 'openings' and roof platform 'stuff'... BTW, still enjoy admiring your old 'Sugarland' modules....I used to be very active with AustinTrak when I lived in Austin...now back 'home' on the Gulf Coast (Mobile Area) closer to my New Orleans' roots... Thanks, and Take Care, Bruce
The Santa Fe was very quick to realize the advantages of diesels as individual power units, and was in the end very bad about keeping sets together once you got into the sixties. This was a large part of the reason for the higher numbered cab units--that and the fact that they were combining the ALCOs in transcontinental service into eight thousand horsepower sets with two boosters. This left the other cab surplus, and in fact the ability of these units to put down some tractive effort in freight service (despite their two idler axles) caused them to be used as 'protection power' in Texas in the late fifties and early sixties. The whole numbering business is confusing. The Santa Fe liked to make things interesting for future historians. The 51 set was two PAs and the only PB; that was their official ID according to Worley in Iron Horses of the Santa Fe Trail and they were the only examples of those models built. The 52 Class and the 52A class were the PA-1 and PB-1 types and were considered seperate classes by the railroad from the 51 and 51B and the 51A. Initially they came in as LAB sets, but the -B cab units were quickly renumbered so that none of them had any letter suffix at all. Then the road started buying two-unit cab/booster sets. The L,A,B ceased to be early except in the unique case of the 51 set, and instead of the second cab (when it wasn't wearing a different, higher number) being, say, 52B it was 52C. This brought them in compliance with the F3s, all of which were four unit sets, and ended any possible 'isn't B for Booster?' confusion. So, you might see a picture of an ALCO cab with a B suffix, then see one with an odd number (say 68 or 78), and see yet another with a C suffix. These could all be the exact same unit. After a short period when the only road diesels they had were the 1A and 1B (in other words, since 1938) every single -A Santa Fe engine number indicated a booster. I might be remembering wrong; the C suffixes might have happened before they got their higher numbers and their number boxes in the side panels. It's a little confusing, as you may have noticed. In any case, the boosters that came with three unit sets remained 52A--62A and the ones that came only with one cab were 70A through 73A. None of these had the big nose number boxes seen on some PA-3s and such, particularly on the MoPac and Katy. Santa Fe never put train numbers on their number boards; God forbid they do anything the SP way. Unit numbers were mounted low on the sides in special lit sign boxes just ahead of the man doors and just above the frame. The numbers were white on a black background. After these were installed, I'm not sure the road ever bothered with the tiny factory number boxes on the nose again. The boosters did not have them; Santa Fe boosters are notoriously hard to ID. Too much information yet?
Thanks for the info!...the more pics and video I find, from the mid 50's on, I'm completely convinced that it was rare to find an actual L-A-B consist with matching numbers!...and...considering the units re-numbered...even more so... plenty of A-B-A consists (obviously Santa Fe liked the cab forward/cab rearward lash-up...late 60's-70's bothwithstanding....heck...even in the 90's you could tell there were still some long timers, or 'old school' types around...witness all the GP-60M-B-B-M lashups and all the 4 unit Dash8-BW lashups with two units facing forward and two units facing rearward!), just differently numbered units... Thanks again, Bruce
Indeed. In the sixties the road did finally add multiple unit connections through the noses of most of their streamlined cabs, and you can find pics of both ALCOs and EMDs running 'elephant style'. But they were, fortunately, slow to do it, and a great many more classic pictures from the fifties can be found. Even later, the dual service GEs were often run nost to tail, but the FP45s in Super/El Cap service were generally run back-to-back. The Warbonnet sure made the classic nose to each end and only boosters in the middle type of lashup look nice, didn't it?
Here this may help: http://www.thedieselshop.us/AlcoPA.HTML You've already seen this resource but worth mentioning again: http://www.snowcrest.net/photobob/sfp9.html One More: http://www.snowcrest.net/photobob/sfp19.html
Did a little more research and... The ALCOs were delivered as LAB sets and were first renumbered as LAC sets. At this time the only engines the road has that went past A in the set numbering were the FTs, and these were all four unit sets. In most, but not all, of these, the fourth unit was a cab, so the 'B is for booster, C is for cab' rule of thumb was natural and intuitive, and while management wasn't paying attention the guys in the trenches were using that to remember. So, the LAB sets caused confusion immediately, and seem to have been renumbered as LAC sets right away, probably by 1947. These units came in two groups, three unit sets and two unit sets. The 51 set, as noted above, were a little different and considered different classes (51 class, two PAs numbered 51L and 51C, and 51A class, a single PB unit), and after renumbering from 51LAB to 51LAC they kept their designations until retirement. Likewise another orphan class, the 90 set, an A-B-A set of Fairbanks-Morse 'Erie-Builts'. The other three unit sets were numbered from 52 and the two unit sets were numbered from 70. The latter were composed of a cab and a booster. Later these units would be recombined into four unit, 8000 horsepower A-B-B-A sets for the mainline and the excess cabs would operate singly or in pairs on lesser trains, often in Texas. This, however, was some ten years in the future when the road decided to renumber all of the -C suffix cabs with their very own numbers. So, perhaps this was done because the side panel number boxes (which, on further research, were probably built in at the factory from the very first) weren't big enough for two number digits and a letter. And since some of these units did operate independently and in pairs of cabs from the beginning, this may have been easier to deal with. The FTA cabs had side panel number boxes without letters, initially on the right side only, and they were more for the purpose of identifying the set rather than the individual units (as is evidenced by the fact that the boosters did not have them). Later they would get these on the left side as well when the road stopped keeping these sets together. In any case, this renumbering was completed in 1949, but was apparently planned in 1948 before the last of the units were delivered new. I suspect this because there were (discounting the 51 set) 27 PA-1s and 15 PB-1s. This would indicate a dozen three-unit sets and three two-unit sets, but 70-73 were listed as two unit sets, so it would seem that one, probably the 73 set, was ordered as a three-unit set but the extra cab was numbered individually from the start. From 1949 on, the cabs were numbered 52-78 and the boosters were in two groups, numbered 52A-62A and 70A-73A. Clear as mud? Bottom line for modelers--if you model a three unit set in the '46-'48 time period, give both cabs the same number, and if you model from '49 on, give one cab a number in the 52-62 range and the other cab either a number in the 63-69 range or one in the 74-78 range.
From what I have read, they just numbered all the cab units with their own "L" number and all the booster with their own "A" numbers. After that there were no Bs or Cs for the PAs.
According to Worsley's Iron Horses of the Santa Fe Trail, the 51 set was the exception and all (or most) were delivered as LAB or LAC sets. The renumbering was complete by '49, when even the first of these sets were barely three years old.
She's probably right about the 51B/63. It would explain why the 70-73 sets were listed as two-unit. 1955 was when the 51 set was repowered, so that explains why it was renumbered back to 51C, and means that there were only 26 PA-1s (discounting the PAs 51 and 51B/C/63). Wish I had Iron Horses of the Santa Fe Trail right in front of me, so I didn't have to try to do this from memory and scattered notes... In fact, the more I think about it the more familiar that sounds. I believe I stand corrected.
Santa Fe pretty much across the table went to a LAC designation for F's and PA's. L stood for Lead Unit, A what we call a B, or as the rails referred to it a cabless unit, and the C stood for the trailing cab unit. What we model railroaders describe or refer to as a B or booster, was never looked at or used to describe the cabless units by most railroads. Just a quirk we model-R types have. Cinthia Priest has the most in depth look at Santa Fe locomotives and she does discuss some of the odditties. May I suggest the closest to being 100% correct out of all the authors who have attempted to document the Santa Fe Locomotives. You can trust what Russell has to say. Now Randy, I don't know about...LOL Just kidding. I tend to hunt down evidence that...well...kind of puts him on the spot. Usually the unexpected. I respect their work and input and trust them. You will get the straight scoop from both of them. One must never assume when it comes to the business of absolute definitions. Grin! Check out signature below.
Well, to be fair, all of the manufacturers from EMD to Baldwin did use the 'B' to identify booster models at one point or another. When the FT four-unit sets on the Santa Fe were reshuffled into three-unit sets in about 1950 and renumbered, the result was nearly half A-B-A sets and just over half A-B-B sets. The former became LAC sets and the latter LAB sets, so we know that by then the use of B for boosters only and the use of C primarily or (by then) exclusively for second cab units was official policy on that road.
