Hope someone can help, Disabled friend is looking into using one of these companies to build a layout for him. We have seen all the fancy ads in MR but are trying to figure out how to decide who shootin' BS and who's being straight. Any suggestions on questions to ask, things to look for or look out for would be appreciated. Any other options would help also. Thanks, John
I haven't used them either, and must agree with the gentlemen above Expensive to the extreme. However there has to be a local MMR group in your area, I would get with them and ask whom builds the best layouts from there group and speak with one of them to build for your friend. Probably less expensive, local for problem solving, and keeping the money spent local; within your own community
You might also try a LHS in the area of your friend and see if they have any in their stores. I know my LHS has a few in the store now and then and yes they have a price tag; I can't imagine what S&H would be to get one via a mail order. I myself have throught of buying one of these as a quick start layout... :tb-biggrin: :tb-biggrin: :tb-biggrin: :tb-biggrin:
Byron Henderson - http://www.layoutvision.com/index.html Past "Commander and Chief" of the Layout Design SIG http://www.ldsig.org/, author for MR, Model Rail Hobbyist, Layout Design Journal, etc., and very active with the PCR Division of the NMRA. He has helped numerous guys out through these organizations, including me. He will be designing my next layout - sooner than later. Here is a good LD-SIG video from the 2008 National Show that Model Rail Hobbyist did which he was part of - http://model-railroad-hobbyist.com/mrht_ldsig_panel/ You can also download - for free- the past issues of Model Rail Hobbyist and read his articles here (He's in about everyone) http://model-railroad-hobbyist.com/download/back_issues Something to consider is that it has been said that a completed railroad -by you - can cost as much as $200 a square foot now a days for materials (benchwork, track, road bed, scenery, buildings, wiring etc). A $1,000 or $1500 for a solid plan could actually save you money in do-overs. One thing to consider with a designer, any designer, is do they share the same philosophy as you. Get to understand them and their way of thinking. Building is very expensive as you are paying experienced trades folks industry wages. But you can have them build as little or as much as you want. ratled
agreed, from what we know they are "very" expensive. We have approached the local club and they don't seem to be interested in this project even though they would be out of pocket $0.00 and would receive a donation and be left the layout by the estate. LHS are both over 1hr away and don't have layouts or knowledgeable staff. My friend is well off and impatient. I'm not but I am concerned that he get value for his money. As always thanks John
John, What scale are you talking about? Where do you live? How large are you talking about? These are the first things we need to know. I have layouts or dioramas that I've built in Mexico City, Germany, Japan, Singapore, OR, CA, Iowa, and Maryland.These are mostly N or Z scale endeavors and I'm currently building an N scale layout for a client. Whether you can use me or not is irrelevant, what I can tell you is that the glossy add guys charge around $50 to $75 per hour. They for the most part do excellent work. Scenery is above average and everything works. If you have the money then I would not be shy about any of them. Here in San Diego, we have a fellow that does wonderful work. He is about $40 per hour his last layout he did took over a year and cost $35,000. Me I charge $30 per hour. Just to give you an idea I did a 3'x4' layout and without shipping the charge was just over $3000. While this seems like a lot of money it is a good deal for those who can't, or don't want to do there own work. This is just a price for 3' x 4', my point is that the price for something in your friend's spare bedroom may be much more. Especially if you hook up with the $60 per hour 'glossy ad guys'. Remember if you don't live where there is a model train maker then you will have to add in shipping or in some cases you will actually have to take the model maker in so he can do the work full time. I've included a link for photos of my work. Good luck, Jim CCRR/Socalz44 http://www.trainboard.com/railimages/showgallery.php/cat/500/ppuser/6936
The scale is HO. He lives in central NC, Raleigh/ Durham area. The plans he has now are for a layout 22x 30, approx. 700 ft of track and 65 turnouts. DCC probably NCE tortoise machines on the turnouts. At this point the layout doesn't have to be completely sceniced (sp) or detailed. Beginning to realize he may have to scale back size of layout. talked to one company who estimated 2500 man hours at $80 an hour plus materials and shipping Sorry for lack of info John
John, No worries. This price looks high to me. Tell him $40 per hour and $85k tops. I'm just reading between the lines here. Your friend will have to scale back the size if money is then the issue. I don't know his disabilty, but a smaller layout does have advantages. Also, a layout 'incomplete' for someone not able to add to it or complete it themselves is not probably going to be satisfying in the long run. Better get in touch with one of the 'glossy' ads in MR and go from there. Cheers, Jim CCRR/Socalz44
Let's get real. If you are building a layout, figure how much time you spent in actual construction building bench work, laying track, wiring, doing scenery etc.. (not the time you spend daydreaming about how the train will look going through the scene). It adds up quick even at $40 hr (which is reasonable). My layout is 21'X21' (HO) and I'm in my eighth year of construction. I guestimate that I've got 1500 to 2000 hrs of actual work time to date and I'm not anywhere near finished. At 2000 hrs that's a 40 hr week every week of the year. That's over $80,000 in labor costs alone! Just something to think about.
Uh, maybe trying to focus the discussion here..... what kind of disabled? Wheelchair? Other physical complications? Are you talking design, carpentry, and electrical or all the finish and detail work? You can sure spend a ton of money for somebody else to build a layout, or you can have a partner that looks at the situation and the skillset and adapts it to the customer. Its still a creative hobby, after all. I have a (now) disabled older friend that had a half-finished basement-sized layout and he paid my (now 18-yr) teenage son to rehab the track and wiring for him with tech support from me when needed. Son made a nice cash wage and got an appreciation of Dad's hobby, old friend made a new friend in my son. Layout now runs. Old friend was more than capable of doing the detail and finish work, but now can't lean over a layout to get to the back, or get under it to wire. He can do scenery as long as it is a removable chunk no bigger than about 2' square, so we used foam. Several thousand trees later.... I'm not volunteering or looking for a job, I'm just suggesting that this is a very individual situation and its still a hobby for the customer, and you need to really find out what level of involvement they want. My old friend LOVES scenery and is really good at it, so the 2' removable chunk approach means he can enjoy what he loves best.
IMHO, I would expect $4-6K for a sound and fun track plan, $20-40K for materials, and $80-100K for labor for an operationally well designed, good running, fully sceniced but basic kit structured layout is fair. I base that off what our club is paying for a similar sized HO layout. We just paid a Design Sig master $6K for the layout plan. He put months of work into it, went back and forth with ergonomics, access, and every other scenario the club could think of, and presented the finalized plan last night. Our club calculated material costs, turnouts, track, switch machines, DCC, scenery materials, etc, and came up with near $35K. $80-100K for construction sounds fair, although it might freak out most people. What you have to realize is, the builder will probably be on site for a year, and will have to both pay for his lodging in the area, as well as continue paying for his regular residence. Figure you pay the builder by the 40 hour week $1500-2000 dollars, and he stays at the local residence inn or suitable suites for $600-800 a week, and the builder is really not cleaning house here, it's just a fair wage, in effect. Where you would save is if you have a builder with a track record of doing fast work. Benchwork goes real fast, but things slow down after that. A faster builder will have ballasted track and sceniced landscape in half the time of another builder. Make an agreement up where you pay by the week, and can terminate the deal at will, if the work seems to be progressing too slow, or is otherwise unsatisfactory, your guy can stop it before the project becomes a mess. Tell the builder, I want to be happy with what I see happening. Don't hire the guy on the corner ringing a bell and yelling "Spange?", but you don't need a firm that builds Museum Displays either. Experienced but less established, with a couple positive references is the target builder for me.
Just from what I've seen of his work, I'd have to second this comment. From looking at the dimensions of the layout he's intersted in, wouldn't simpler be best? 65 turnouts are an awful lot for a layout that size. Also, making it a shelf type layout at the best height for the disabled operator would reduce and reach issues. I also have to agree with the other posts saying that building it for him or having some kids help out (Boy Scouts come to mind--there's a railroading badge and there's always Eagle projects) would go a long way in reducing the cost. Maybe if the scope was narrowed a bit and the givens and druthers listed, you'd get some more constructive responses? I'm sure several here that are experts in xtrakcad could even design a layout plan to start with. Just some thoughts.
Steve suffers from a multitude of gastro intestinal maladies that can put him down from a couple of hours to days on end. They also prevent him from bending over and crawling around. I have arthritis and degenrative bone disease so I'm limited also. We had an informative conversation with the owner of one of the "glossy ad" companies today who looked at what we had done gave us some constructive advice,simplify, stop over building (my fault) comes from days in construction. He gave us the option of using some of his contractors at a per hr. rate plus materials and travel expenses for certain projects on the railroad. We're going to take some time to re-think this project and our "givens and druthers" and go from there. John
This is a interesting thread. I’ve been hearing a lot of stories lately of people being injured or getting sick and becoming disabled. I’ve been thinking of what would I do if I suddenly could not finish my layout. I wondered what it would cost to hire someone to build a layout. Now that I see the reality of what it might cost, I think I’d be looking for another hobby unless I could afford it that is I was self-employed for over 10 years and I knew exactly how long it took to do what I did. Now I would never pay someone by the hour because if they were truly good at what they did, they should be able to give an accurate estimate of what its going to be. Just my 2 cents.
