Anti-Fatigue mats and Static electricity

Hi folks,

I finally have a good question to post!

Last night I got the basement finished. The walls are painted and I installed some interlocking anti-fatigue mats around the layout instead of having to walk on the concrete.
I posted the pictures to my blog and this morning one of the followers sent me an email telling me to be careful and aware of the fact that they can produce static electricity! He said he had some friends who lost a couple of hand held throttles from the resulting static discharge!
Naturally this got me thinking.:question:

After talking to several friends [one who is an electrician], snooping on the web I have come up with almost evenly mixed results. Nothing that weighs heavy towards pros or cons, or any solid remedies.

The mats that I got were the cheaper ones from Harbor Freight - $6.99 for a set of four.
I placed them right over painted concrete floors.
I live in Nebraska where you can swim in the humidity in the summer months.
The winters can be kind of dry.
I don't have a humidifier, but might have to look into one.

I know there are anti-static, anti-fatigue mats available.

I have read where guys who have used them in their wood shops [like mine] who have complained of this brand of mats. Some say just get them dirty and wear off the factory surface and they will be fine. While others have claimed they would ground them to the machines or to an Earth ground by bolting them to a copper ground wire while some have just used tape. others have said use anti-static spray, but those can make the mats slicker and are only good for a short period of time until the spray wears off. One guy said he even uses little disposable booties!

Yet others say they have not had any problems at all.

Some guys have said that if they are placed on concrete floors you shouldn't have any problems.


So my question is this:

Has anyone ever used these mats?
Those of you who do, have you had any problems with Static Electricity?
If you have, did you find a cure for it?

Allen...

 

Allen, consider an anti-static wrist band that can clip to your power supply chassis or similar common ground on your layout. For instance, you could run a wire from the power supply ground out to one or more connectors mounted into the layout fascia. Then plug the wrist band wire into one of the ground connectors near where you are working. This may be inconvenient, but it might be less expensive and complicated than trying to ground the mats. This link shows what I'm refering to, http://www.amazon.com/Belkin-Anti-Static-Wrist-Adjustable-Grounding/dp/B00004Z5D1. Please understand that I'm not recommending buying from Amazon, just showing an example of an anti-static wrist band.

 

We use them at every show we do. Yes the mats can develop some static over a weekend when 2-3000 people walk over them. And they get very dusty. Concrete floors produce lots of dust. We've never noticed "excessive" static charge though the static discharge sound as we take the mats up Sunday evenings can be a surprise to some of the folks that help us.

 

Hytec,
I had given this some thought before posting. I have seen folks who work on computers use these things and my brother-in-law uses them at his work.
Your right the only thing about them is I will have to train my operators to uses these. God knows I am having a hard enough time training them to reset the turnouts to normal positions!

Another buddy has told me to the attach little squares of metal to the fascia next to each of the UP3/5 panels then connect them all to a ground, again I would have to train the operators to touch these first before plugging and unplugging the throttles Back to square 1.
Understood you have no affiliation with Amazon.
But thanks for the input!

Wig,
I talked to a friend who sets up there modules in an auditorium that has the entire floor covered with this type of matting. He said they are constantly fighting the static from them.
He mentioned that what I might try if it gets to be too bad is to connect a ground wire from the mats to gas pipe, water pipe or even to an electrical outlet box that is grounded or anything that has a good ground, and hope that helps to disperse the charge.
I have about four or five places where I can make this type of connection to the mats.

My last resort would be to get a Humidifier and put in the basement or go the long route and install one in my furnace. I really would hate to have to pull them out after putting them, they are so nice on the footsies!

I talked to a electrician friend of mine who is just confused as it makes no since to him. Foam/Rubber mats should act as an insulator in his mind.

I guess I will find out come this winter.

Thanks All for the input.

Allen...

 

Allen, a dehumidifier would have the opposite effect. Dry air allows a static charge to build up, whereas humid air tends to bleed off static charge. An example of this is a cold winter day when you get zapped reaching for a door knob inside a dry heated building.

Your friend's idea of grounding the mats to a water pipe probably is the best solution, especially if you are trying to make it "Idiot Proof". Get some aluminum screen or perforated sheets from a building supply store and place them under each mat. Then connect them all together with copper wire, which is then connected to a water pipe. I don't think a gas pipe is a good idea. If the ground wire to pipe connection is not perfect and if there is the slightest gas leak, any spark from the loose connection could ignite the fumes....not good.

 

Our winters are dry, but not real dry. I've never really measured the humidity but we still have some.
Even though, in the house on the carpet if you drag your socked feet one can produce a good charge.
During the winter at my wood shop with all the sawdust, it gets real dry and I can't touch most of the equipment without getting a good bite! It's a good wake up call first thing in the morning!

While talking to the buddy who sets up there modules in the auditorium, I asked him about using mesh or screen under the mats and like you said, connecting it to the ground. He thought it might work but might but since it was under the mats and we walk on the tops, it may or may not help.

On the wood shop forum, or was it elsewhere? Someone said that since the mats are on concrete, there should be no problem and that they should act like an insulator.

Like I said, I guess I have to wait and see. So far in this search I have not come up with any one thing that weighs heavy one way or the other in pros or cons or even fixes for this.

Maybe I should just hand out little foot booties for everyone when they come over, at least they won't have to remember to touch or clip anything! LOL If nothing it might give us something to laugh at.

 

Hytec, Did I type De Humidifier instead of Humidifier? Ooops, sorry.

Your right the gas pipe may not be a good idea, but what I didn't say was I had the gas shut off about 4 years ago when I switched to all electric. So my gas pipes that I would connect to would be empty and past the shut-off. But still all - in- all, not a good idea. But I bet it would end any static problems for good!

Another thing that might add to the problem is electric heat tends to be drier than gas heat, although I have not noticed then anywhere in the house since I switched.

I just posted a reply to BC in which I mentioned something about the screens under the mats and we walk on the top of the mats, not sure if that would a make a difference or not? But, even if I did not lay screen under every inch of matting, but rather spread out a few sections and then tied them together with a ground, that might be worth a shot as well, or place a section under the mats only near the UP panels where some would cover one or two at a shot. Then they would be closer to the point of possible discharge?
At least I wouldn't have to train everyone, it would be automatic if it worked.

I would imagine that using aluminum screen/mesh would work as well, it's not as conductive as metal, but could be had a little easier.

Again, Thanks for the input, anymore would always be welcomed.

Allen...

 

I never had a problem in dead-dry Albuquerque. But then I never had to pick them up. I think the act of picking them up might be creating some sort of static storm as the rubber separates from the concrete. It probably does not matter which is wet or which is dry but, assuming some transfer of moisture between the two, there might be some static generated upon separation. While working on my railroad for nearly seven years, I never noticed a static discharge of any sort.

I suspect that unequal moisture between two different permeable surfaces in close contact, such as rubber mats on a concrete floor, would cause a transfer of moisture between the two until an equilibrium is reached. Since that equilibrium might take many days (or months) to reach, ripping the two apart would force a sudden equilibrium--i.e., a static discharge. Or it could be a simple air-to-air discharge: the rubber and concrete, due to pressure, form a partial vacuum in the boundary layers. Separating the two could cause static, or something that just sounds like static.

It's not like sliding leather soled shoes across a nylon carpet and then zapping your younger brother, a favorite ploy of mine in department stores in the 1960s.

I've used these mats for years in various climates, and have never had a static discharge experience.

 

Pete,
Just to clarify, your saying "Rubber". Are you referring to the foam mats that I am using?

Here is what I'm using:http://www.harborfreight.com/4-piece-anti-fatigue-foam-mat-set-94635.html

These say they are "foam", but not really sure what they are truly made of, might be a foam/rubber compound.
They are very lightweight and feel more like foam than rubber.

I am having a real hard time believing that these mats will give off a charge as well, it just goes against common sense.

 

i don't think these mats generate a charge by just laying there. same with rubber mats. it depends heavily on what shoes/clothes you wear.
if the soles of the shoes are made of leather this will generate quite some zap .. soles out of rubber not. also there are some clothes fabrics which tend to generate static charges a lot more than others.


also most handheld throtthles have plastic bodies, their electronics inside are therefore at least a bit insulated.

 

Our club uses the Harbor Freight/Costco cheap-o types, and we're always running into pings and pops from accidentally touching rail. A friend uses an anti-static spray for his home layout (I believe it's Scotch brand), which appears to work very well, and usually lasts for a 6-hour op session. Also, there are anti-static mats available, but these can be quite expensive relative to those mentioned above.

 

The mat doesn't generate the charge. You walking around generates the charge. The problem with the mat comes from it being a very good insulator. This allows you to build up a static charge on your body. Anti-static mats don't have a high resistance and therefore bleed off the static charge before it builds to the point of causing a problem. Unfortunately for an anti-static mat to work properly you have to wear shoes that aren't insulated. At work we would wear anti-static smocks and wrist straps that were connected to a building ground. When in the production area at one of the manufacturing plants you had to wear either shoes that were made to be static reducing or put a clip in your shoes that grounded you to the flooring which was treated to reduce static.
Dealing with static problems can be difficult because not only does humidity affect the static buildup, the clothes your wearing come in to play. Years ago I worked on a mainframe that would hang intermittently. We found that the problem occurred when one of the female operators walked across the floor and touched the control console. It never occurred when any of the male operators did the same thing. We eventually figured out that the problem was being caused by static electricity being generated by the women wearing panty hose. We resolved the problem by getting the humidity in the room up to 50%, installing grounded anti-static mats in front of the console and running ground straps into the console housing.

 

Using In The Basement Shop For Years----NO PROBLEM........BUT??

I've been using the mats in my home basement shop for a couple of years now and have not noticed any static discharge problem. If there is static electricity being generated, it might be getting drained of by my power tools that are either sitting directly on the mat, a stand mounted grinder and a Craftsman Table Saw. The static could also be drained off by my drill press that is directly mounted/bolted to the concrete floor, with the foam mat cut away around the base of the mats. All of these power tools are well grounded by being plugged into grounded three prong outlets this would tend to drain off any static charge.

Since I am in the process of rebuilding the layout room and the Indiana Railway, I had planned on using the foam mats as floor covering in the basement layout room. With the addition of a lot of electronics (DCC & such) to the layout, the last thing I want is to have a LARGE static electricity problem. This thread now has me wondering of linoleum or floor tile might be a better solution for the floor. I sorta hope the foam mats will work, as I have been buying them for awhile, whenever I can find them at yard sales, auction and on sale at Harbor Freight.

It's always something!!!!!!!

 

I agree. It's not the mats, but from moving around on the mats.
Also agree that the type of soles and clothes will make a difference as well.

As for the plastic bodies, yes they should insulate the guts to a point, but if your holding the plug while plugging it in to the UP3/5 panel, I can see how it might jump onto the pins in the plugs and then towards the guts of the throttle as well even if the panels are grounded, like mine are.

This might be an option per session, as long as the spray does not contain any silicon and make the surface slick. I think the first thing I will try is to ground the mats to a grounded outlet, water pipe or earth ground. Making sure that the surface of the mats is where the connection will be made.

Also think I will look into a portable humidifier and also try the anti-static spray.

I would like to make it so it's a "no-think" situation for the operators.
Trying to train the operators to plug an anti-static band or wear a certain type of clothing might prove to be challenging. Not saying it couldn't be done, but one mishap and there goes a piece of electronics.

This thread and the real heat wave we've been having here is making me look forward to this fall!

Thanks for all the input and I will try to keep everyone informed of what happens.

Allen...

 

When I said rubber, I meant the foam mats from Harbor Freight or Costco. As I read through the thread, it occurs to me that I never wore static-producing clothes or shoes in the train room, so my experiences could be different than others.

 

In the summer and when it is warm, do not wear any socks. This will keep any static charge from accumulating while walking. In the winter when it is cold, do not wear anything wool around the layout!
Another thing you can do is to carry your keys in your pocket, and grab them with both hands. Any static charge will be dissipated via conduction with the metal keys.

 

I am very afraid to imagine the posture this recommended action might look like.:headspin:

 

Well it's been awhile since I posted this question, and I figured it would take some time to play around with it and experiment.
I had an ops session scheduled for last weekend and in setting things up, I found that my old problems had crept up again. This is where some of the chips had mysteriously changed their settings that I had programmed in, took some steps over the past week to see if I could curb the static gremlins I've been dealing with. So far it seemed like I may have cornered them. I'm assuming this is where the troubles are coming from?

Last summer I did a bunch of chip installs and never had one issue with the programming changes, all summer. I didn't do much with the layout perse' this winter until this last session. That's when I found a bunch of chips were acting up again. No problems over the summer with high humidity, Problems arise in the winter with low humidity.

I spent several days trying to reprogram the chips. Once this was all redone, I went out and bought a small cool air humidifier and a can of Static Guard. After cleaning the basement and running a vacuum over the mats, I sprayed the static guard down on the whole floor and let it dry. Then I hooked up the humidifier and let it run on high overnight.

The next day I went down to get things up and running and purposely wore my socks and drug my feet to see what would happen. I touched one of the light fixtures and nothing! So I tried it again several more times and NOTHING! I think between the humidifier and the spray I may have things licked.

One thing mother nature threw at me was was it rained during the afternoon session, but I don't think it was enough to make that much of a difference, we've had very little moisture this year.

I still want to see if hooking up some heavy gauge wires and clipping them from the mats to a ground would help any