I need some help with history of yet another predecessor company. That being the Oregon & California Railroad. I have found universal acceptance of the date May 12, 1887, for the SP acquiring control of the O&C. And again for a date of January 3, 1927, when all assets were finally absorbed into SP. In between is nothing but MUD! I find this to be very lousy historic work! In searching the 'Net, there are dates of 1889, 1890, and clear on up to 1895 for the O&C to still be an operating company. In addition, I have in my possesion, an 1891 dated piece of paper concerning an operating O&C engine! Can anyone clear up some history via definitive documentation? This is frustrating! Thanks! Boxcab E50
I did see that same paragraph. Plus found a couple more. One using the date 1890. Another as late as 1895. Then I have the paper in my collection, sitting in front of me now, dated April 13, 1891, showing an operating O&C loco........ Then there are known to be errors in earlier ICC records.... I wonder if anyone has some Employee TimeTables for the SP during that era? Those are usually a decent indicator.... Boxcab E50
Well, I'm just getting around to doing something that was intended for long ago. Here is a scan of the paper in question. Am still daydreaming that an answer can be found! Boxcab E50
Boxcab - Would it make any difference to add the fact that the Central Pacific RR took over the O&CRR before Southern Pacific took over the line???? Otherwise, I don't have a clue to help you answer the question. LOL
Bill- The presence of CP RR could indeed have been a factor. I saw your noting this in the Tunnel 13 thread. Thus I was prompted to post the above photo. I don't recall any of the web sites I've searched even mentioning CP in the mix. So if you have any dates? Anything I can fill in the gaps a little more.......? Anything........ Boxcab E50
Boxcab ... take a look at these websites: http://cprr.org/Museum/Encyclopedia.html http://cprr.org/Museum/index.html http://cprr.org/Museum/Stanford_Tutorow_files/Stanford_Tutorow_Ch6.pdf (Bottom of page 261) There's lots of good information in there. [ 05. October 2004, 14:30: Message edited by: Ironhorseman ]
Bill- That one pdf file was a biggie! I see what you were looking at. There are actually two different railroads, with similar names here. The one you've spotted, was a Central Pacific subsidiary- The California & Oregon RR. The one I'm after, was the Oregon & California RR. Which built south from Portland to Ashland, OR. Where it met the C&O building north from California. But I don't believe the O&C was ever a subsidiary of the CP. Boxcab E50
Yeah .. I recall reading about the O&C building south from Portland. I think the feds set up the condition of which ever railroad, (O&C or C&O) reached Ashland first would prevail. The C&O got to Ashland before O&C .. believe it or not! I know there's alot to read in those links, but I believe you'll see what I am talking about ... Unless I misunderstood what I read (and that's possible too!)
Well, back to square one again. The info YoHo has posted, I had also located. But as you can see in the paperwork (train order) I posted, we apparently have an O&C form used, addressed to an O&C engine, in April of 1891........ Being quite familiar with train orders, I do know that after a merger, old forms may continue in use until the supply is used up. But then again, they also may not be continued. And old forms are quickly disposed of.... For such a small fleet, this long after 1889, they should have long ago have been renumbered into SP, if taken into SP. Doing so to steam, was much easier than the repainting needed these days of diesels. Also, having done professional research involving ICC records, I have, as have others, found errors in their older files. As the old saying goes, "this does not compute." Boxcab E50
I think you may be digging too deep. It doesn't give a date of when in 1889 the ICC changed their status, but your train order is from April? (or march? I don't know how they did the datesit looks like 4/3-91) So at most 2 years difference. Now think about this logically, I used to work for 3Com. About 6 months in, the company changed their logo completely. When I left a year and a half later, they were still selling product with the old logo on it. The odds of a bearucratic change such as this moving quickly, especially for a railroad that had already been effectivly a part of the SP for 2 years is slim. Also, I can't read the departing station name, only the East Portland part. It may be that some stations had the old orders. It also appears to be a local or some low priority train which is likely using older equipment and stuff low on the priority list. Sure it may have been easier to paint over some lettering on a steam engine compared to blasting away beautiful gray and red to cover it with sickly yellow, but I'm sure it was much harder to coordinate engine renumbering and things like that with more delays in communications. In short, you may be looking for an answer that is as clear as the nose on your face. Of course, I have absolutly no actual knowledge abotu this, I'm just guessing based on my unfortunate experiences with Beuracracies.
YoHo- I do understand what you are saying. And I did touch upon this exact scenario in my last posting. What I'm going on, is my experience from professional transportation research work. Plus my decades of collecting these items. In the years before our time, the companies were much more diligent about converting/assimilating the acquired operations. While you might have seen a few older freight cars roaming, and often roaming was the reason they escaped, primary stuff such as facilities and locos were swiftly swallowed. Or at times, retired almost immediately. They did not "bandit", restencil, etc., as we see now. And also as I noted, there have been errors known in older ICC files. The engine shown in the train order is an O&C loco. And if this is indeed post merger, then it also should have been addressed differently. The order would have properly read "Eng O&C 42....." To distinguish it from any conflict with SP numbering. So this would involve a major error by dispatcher and telegrapher/operator. Sometimes RR history stuff can be complicated, when it should be oh so simple. Boxcab E50
