The Standards plays a important part in the hobby.Many enjoys these standards and don't even know it.. RP20.1 IS NOT a standard.Its a RECOMMEND PRATICE(RP) even though many modelers mistakenly calls a "Standard".. Oddly there is more RPs then standards. NMRA - StRPs Index
Larry.... I will agree that there should be SOME 'standards'...for manufactures. As an example: Track gauge, wheel gauge are just a couple that should be 'regulated'. Rail height, tie spacing, tie color etc. is NOT. In the same vain...I dont believe any organiziation should dictate to a modeler how they 'should' run their stuff. Weight of rolling stock is just one of those "RP's" that some take as gospel. If I have a boxcar that wobbles and adding an extra .25 oz. of weight fixes that problem...BUT that added weight isnt up to some 'rule' that some originization says it should be...who cares !! JMO. .
Larry, thanks for the clarification. As a licensed professional engineer, I understand and respect the difference between a code, a standard, and recommended practice. I also respect the fact that if a bunch of "crotchity old goats" are going to share their experiences and knowledge in a way that helps me improve my modeling skills and operating performance, I'm going to put it to use in what ever way I can. The layout plan might be my idea, but not having built most of the products that make up the layout, it's probably a good idea to be aware of the subtle and not so subtle differences that can occur, and be able to compensate for them. That's how I see the value of the NMRA RP's and SPC's. It's the same way in the world of engineering.
Ummm, nobody said that you had to follow the standards. Some of us, myself included, feel that following the NMRA standards is a good way to avoid a lot of the operations problems that commonly plague model railroading. Far from being a bunch of "crotchety old gits" I think the NMRA standards drafters have done a lot to ensure that, say, we don't have to buy only X brand locos and X brand rolling stock if our layout is X brand track. If you don't like it, don't pay any attention to it. What gets me are these folks that visit our clubhouse and bring in all manner of rattle-trap gear and then try and tell me it's my fault that their train won't stay on the track or hold together. Ahem - check your wheelsets, check your couplers, check your car weights, check check check... I am not going to alter good trackwork to run out of gauge equipment. I have never seen NMRA ninjas, but I could probably use them now and then to take my side when someone comes to our club as a guest and tries to give me a raft of bull-stuff about how our track must be the problem. :tb-wink: Adam
You may find this of interest. RP20.1 dates back to the era of wooden car kits,sprung trucks with metal wheels.These wooden cars came without weight* so those "crotchity old goats"(actually there was a lot of 30/40 year old on that committee.) came up with RP20.1 This was put forth to the membership and was voted on and past. So,all Standards and RPs was design by a committee and voted on by the membership that is why today there is no NMRA approved coupler in HO.The closest was the NMRA design X2F(aka horn hook/NMRA coupler) that was voted down by the membership. *Some of these kits had a metal underframe but,still was to light.
"A bunch of crotchity old goats sitting around and declaring themselves RR Gods?" Brakie- It is probably better than being a curmudgeon, which caused a lengthly thread about a year ago.
Now hold on here a minute. I resemble one of those old goats, crotchity, fart faced curmudgeons. However, I'm not a not a member of the NMRA. I was but gave up on them or rather they gave up on me. About the time they started calling switches...turnouts, and couldn't decide on a knuckle coupler as the standard for HO. But that's another story for another thread. Right on George, now we is talking. I had to laugh when I read your post as that's precisely how I feel. At 48 years and still counting of model railroading experience (whatever that means or implies). I've seen some interesting history develop. I saw the NMRA take a considerable amount of time getting their head screwed on straight and they still missed the mark. However, (there's that word again) they have taken a turn for the better and their "Recommendations" have proven to be all but right on. Still on my layout, I reserve the right to make the rules, set the standards and run my trains the way I WANT TO! Those are inalienable rights as far as I'm concerned. So, we is on the same page in that respect. Now, on my layout I do follow the recommendations and alleged standards that NMRA has established or promoted or exacerbated. They work for me and as long as that's the case I don't have to spend my time here saying things like a 40 foot box car or reefer should weigh in at one ounce, or a fifty foot car should weigh in at.....etc., etc., etc., and so on. I can refer to the most recent pontifications of the NMRA. Grin! I love independent types and thinkers. "Don't tread on me", still applies. So onward and forward and above all else....Have fun! And try a smiley face or two to brighten up your day. baffled:
I do, too, but if you're going to run your stuff on my track, which I check and re-check regularly, and you're having problems with derailments and couplers and such don't take a pair of pliers or the edge of a flat screwdriver to my track to "fix" what is actually your problem. These standards are meant to help us, not dictate what we can and cannot do. If someone wants to run out-of-gauge wheelsets and buggy couplers at home that's just fine. By the same token, I am not going to change my layout for every out of gauge wheelset that comes walking in the door.
Right on SteamDonkey74, Well put! You are right on the money. I started to say dead on but that seemed to close to home. And, I say more about those wheel sets...coming up NEXT. We need to back track here to wobblies. Those train cars that wobble down the tracks. Rocking and rolling...without a tune. ON MY LAYOUT...grin....the wobbling is caused by an out of round wheel, bent axle or a warped truck frame. NOT THE LACK OF WEIGHT. Replace the defective wheel, axle or freight truck and the problem clears up. As I said earlier. If you find yourself adding more and more weight...you aren't (you are not) looking at the real problem. You need a check list: Track isn't always the problem but start there. Then next on your check list or first (It's your railroad and you make the rules) take a look at your freight or passenger trucks. ON MY LAYOUT. I simply don't add weight unless for example (Ie.,) I have a situation where I have a body mounted coupler, coupling to, a truck mounted coupler. Ie. Locomotive to a baggage car. The locomotive with the body mounted coupler will fight the truck mounted coupler and eventually pull the baggage car off the track. A little weight tends to help but doesn't necassarily resolve the problem. A body mounted coupler on the baggage car would do the trick. As I said earlier, BE SURE you are looking at the REAL problem and not trying to hide it by adding weight. The problem will only confuse, haunt and plague you until you finally figure it out. Ok, I've chimed on here long enough. That's my story, that's my experience talking and all done without the aide of the infamous NMRA. So, go learn your own lessons. Go make your own mistakes. Feel free to test my ideas and see if... I'm right. I said while experiencing a bad hair day, a nitro quick headache and all the while flashing a big crotchity, teeth missing grin. You can take this mean, angry, awful, old fart faced, crumdugeon's word for it or prove your own. But Have fun doing it!
I never said keep adding weight. I was responding to this comment about the invasion of NMRA Ninjas "telling us what to do." I am the last person to tell someone that they can't run screwy equipment on their pike, but I have no problem, at my club, pulling cars or consists that pose an operational hazard because of verifiable problems (out of gauge wheels, screwy couplers, and, yes, sometimes no enough weight to prevent the wobble of doom). Why should some guy dump a bunch of cars because of these problems on the Red line just ahead of the Morning Daylight (which has run near-flawlessly all summer) sending someone else's Kato PA's and several head-end cars to the floor? Anyone in my club has the right and indeed the duty to pull equipment and test it if it is showing signs of being bad order. We don't do this to pick on people but to prevent operational headaches and the very LIKELY possibility that bad order equipment is going to screw up other trains, scenery, buildings, and so on. An even cursory reading of my earlier posts would reveal that I don't think that adding more and more weight is a cure-all. I am not hiding problems. I go through these things very carefully. When we have a persistent problem I check the track gauge, I check any turnouts that may be involved, I check the joints between sections of tracks, I check to make sure we're getting power (if applicable), I check to make sure the track is clean, I check the wheels to make sure they are clean, I check couplers, I check wheel gauges, I check for warped pieces or things that should be free-rotating that aren't, and if I see some of that tell-tale wobble (the under-weight kind, now that we've checked, wheels, trucks, etc.) I check car weights. Nothing in there says that I keep adding weight to cars and release NMRA Ninjas on George, does it? I guess people are going to have to find another straw man to beat up on because he ain't here. :tb-wink::thumbs_up: Adam
Sometimes I wish I had a secret button I could press that would summon the NMRA Ninjas. I get rather persistent folks visiting the club sometimes who would rather re-gauge our track out of gauge than fix their wheelsets. I could press the button, the helicopters would sound overhead, and soon NMRA-gauge wielding ninjas would surround the offending rolling stock (and, to be fair, check the track) to solve the problem once and for all.
Adam et al... The RR Ninjas just showed up here...and they where speaking a language I didnt understand...BUT...I clearly heard your name mentioned !!!...LMAO ! J/K Now...If ya read my reply again...you will see I completely advocate some "Standards"...like wheel gauge etc. What I was alluding to was there are people who will say that everytime there is a problem...it must be that the modeler isnt following NMRA Standards! I am NOT saying you...and I aint mentioning names at all. It just befuddles me that there are those who advocate complete adhesion to everything NMRA and "you wont have any problems"...thats bunk and we all know it. So some people trying to convince other people to 'follow the rules' for flawless operations...almost sounds 'political' to me. I like reading posts that give sound advise without throwing the NMRA in there...just saying...thnxs. As far as adding more weight...or just smashing the cotton-pickin thing with a BFH ! Whatever works and makes the modeler smile...have fun... ;-) . .
mtntrainman wrote:The RR Ninjas just showed up here... ---------------------- I wonder..There's a black Huey circling my house..Could it be? ---------------------- Fotheringill wrote:Brakie- It is probably better than being a curmudgeon.. ---------------------- Oh my! My secret is out.LOL!
"Now...If ya read my reply again...you will see I completely advocate some "Standards"...like wheel gauge etc. What I was alluding to was there are people who will say that everytime there is a problem...it must be that the modeler isnt following NMRA Standards!" The NMRA messed (artificially kind word to use in a public access area) up so badly on the DCC specifications that I do not trust any of their work. According to the calculation they give, a 50 foot car is about 1/10th of an ounce difference from a 40 foot car. I have "NMRA" weighted cars that derail because they are too light. So if you live strictly by the NMRA, you will be very disappointed. They seem to be so impressed with themselves.... makes me wonder what the color of the sky is in their little world?
I don't think I was advocating a strict adherence the NMRA standards, but if we all just pick our own track gauges and wheel gauges we're going to have even more problems. I think there is a hazard in blindly accepting everything the NMRA suggests, but I think there is perhaps an even greater folly in chucking everything the NMRA has established just because they established it. There is some value in having some standards. The car weight thing is a recommended practice, not a standard. If your car is running fine though light, who cares? I don't. If your car is in gauge, perfect couplers, perfect wheels, running on perfect track and it is wobbling all over because it's too light (remember, we've already established perfect everything else) then I suggest looking at car weights, but I am not going to tell someone that they can't have operational difficulties and derailments on their own pike at home. Gotta go... I am getting a call on the NMRA NinjaPhone!
I had a bunch of guys in black pajamas staying at my place last night. They checked over everything on my layout, gave it their seal of approval and headed out of here headed for SteamDonkey74 (some kind of emergency call) and said they had a Mountain Trainman to visit. The black huey left as I was getting up to fix them breakfast. A note said sorry we had to leave....Emergency insurrection occuring in the Arizona precinct. LOL You guys and gals have fun. Quoting Jim 157, "It's your layout, you make the rules and above all else have fun". .
We've - ahem - I mean they, the NMRA Ninjas, have all your layouts mapped out now. If you haven't gotten a visit you can expect one.
It strikes me that we should think about what the prototypes did to be able to shuttle cars around the country and become the major force in transportation at one time. I believe they created standards. So if we want to run our cars and engines on someone else's railroad we will probably have to conform to their standards. Jack
