In typical Trainboard fashion, this thread has taken many branch lines, sidings and spurs on the topic. Not a negative comment, just as Guns & Roses said, take it for what it is. First the Horizon/Athearn business transaction: I work with this company almost on a daily basis, first because of my job and second I have a few friends over there including a good friendship with the program writer and editor for the Spektrum transmitter software. I think speculation makes for good science fiction and really looking into more that what it is is just a waste of time. The only deciding factor is time. Time will tell but as of right now, it's business as usual in Champaign Illinois. Second, the hobby is dying: Depends on your perspective really. While working at Trainfest last month, I saw a fair amount of young people ages stroller to college involved in some sort of model railroad activity be it watching or running trains to fill in the blank. While it would be easy to paint the youth demographics with a wide brush and say all those younger modelers of college age and lower are modeling ready to run modern prototype, I would be wrong. One of the youths in the T-Trak module area was maybe 8 and running Milwaukee Road. It's funny to look back at my Model Railroad magazines and see the issues from the late 1940's and early 1950's and read the letters to the editor on how almost ready to run and ready to run plastic is ruining the hobby and how it is doomed. Not that different from the comments I have read in this thread. In my opinion (and it is only that so hold off sending your hate mail) is that for me in N scale, there has never been a better time. I can choose between nicely crafted ready to run locomotives, rolling stock and even structures, or I detail, paint and decal a locomotive, rolling stock and build from a rather extensive list of both plastic and laser cut wood kits. To ad to that, I can pick up an issue of Railroad Model Craftsman and learn to scratchbuild a structure, kitbash a box car or detail a locomotive. The hobby isn't dead or dying, it is evolving. The "Hobby" is many things to many people but at the end of the day, it is what you make of it. Back in 1993 when we were buying those pilot/coupler kits for the front of our Atlas and Kato units, I could not find a 1970's era B&M diesel. I adapted, I learned to paint and decal, then learned to detail. Now, even with the locomotives available, I have found more enjoyment of detailing and painting my own equipment. I hear the argument of any particular hobby all the time. From fellow RC modelers who say the RTF and ARF's are killing the hobby to the Jeep community. True, on any given day at my club field, you'll find any assortment of RTF and ARF models, but people (including myself) still build, just take a look at the magazine I work for. The RTF and ARF's have changed the hobby, but in many ways for the better. Honestly, how many want to perfect their flying skills on a scale WWII fighter they spent 18 months building and finishing when they can do it with an ARF? That is how I got into Scale RC, I learned to fly right with an ARF then I had little to no problems flying something I spent time and money building. I hear the same argument from my Jeep buddies. So who is the real Jeeper? Someone who bought a basket case 1948 CJ2-A and built her back into show room quality, the guy who turned his 1976 CJ-5 into a rock crawling beast or the guy who just picked up a 2014 JKU? Frankly, I'm a Jeeper because of the dependability and the ease of maintenance and Jess my Wrangler is a fun railfan vehicle. If your down here, still reading this and have considered what I wrote above, realize I'm not posting based on any insider news, just some observations of a secluded N scale modeler in the middle of mid-America.
You know Andy!! Tell him that you heard on the internet from a guy in SOCAL that all the finest people fly Futaba!! Trust me, he'll get it!! Like I noted earlier in this thread, RC has been "dying" for 20 years now!! Hobbies change, the ways people access a given hobby and how they enjoy them rarely remains static, at least in my experience. But each hobby has their naysayers who feel that the "old ways" are dying and the "new ways" will be the end of the hobby!! As you say below, this hobby (and all of them) evolve. THose who do not like it bemoan the death of the hobby (as they know it). Yep, ARFs have killed RC, NOT!! Horizon has done spectacularly well with their Hangar 9 ARFs, many designed by Mike McConville. Their new scale plane are great, and the ParkZone RTF and BNF stuff is everywhere. BTW - nice to see another RC guy around here.
"You guys are looking at it just from the persepctive of Athearn. There is a whole lot more to Horizon than just Athearn" Absoutely ! We are model railroaders and could care less about the RC side of Horizon...anymore then the RCers could care about model trains here on a train forum. We just cuss and discuss our side of the hobby. It's all speculation until something 'official' comes from Horizon. There are very few manufactures that read forums and care what people say. But that wont...or shouldnt stop anyone from voicing their concerns. Controversial subject matter is the mainstay of forums and other social media ;-) Horizon/Athearns track record pretty much suxs when it comes to n scale. So for any of us to take a few well deserved jabs at them should be expected. JMO YMMV. *Disclaimer: The above was written BEFORE I had my first cup of morning coffee...lol
Yup. I essentially pointed this out, earlier in the topic. BTW- I am NOT looking at this from the perspective of Athearn, but as to all the N scale handled, and how any changes at the top might effect everything. We aren't going to know with any certainty, until some significant amount of time passes, how these leadership changes will really prove out. What should be a seamless transition can easily become a bumpy road. We have all seen this happen.
Perhaps those of us who have seen what we define as a "hobby" in decline we be better off saying something along the line of "RTR is making it harder for many hobbyist and killing some parts of the hobby they really enjoy". Granted there is still plenty of RTR on the market and as long as that is true, there will always be people in the hobby to some extent. I about 13 years in multiple areas of the industry and I can attest to the decline in numbers of people who are traditional hobbyist. Sure the libertarian-hobbyist might say that it is no ones business what another does with their hobby, and that is true, but that doesn't mean that ripple effects don't touch those of us who do more than take something out of the box and glue it to some foam board. I am happy for anyone who gets in the hobby no matter how they do it, as I stated above I do everything I can to get my kids involved, but the trend towards RTR has eaten its way into the market share of kits and eroded the confidence many large manufacturers had in non-RTR products. R/C planes and kit building have been brought up and, as an avid R/C plane guy, I can point out that a large number of kit manufacturers have folded, or stopped making kits, because of the ARF trend. That didn't kill the hobby but it did put a crimp on my hobby, so I feel that I can be displeased with the negative aspects of it. There are still kit manufacturers out there in the R/C world and I have recently turned to scratch building planes... that doesn't change the negative effect RTR has had on the availability of kits. My version of the hobby has had to evolve, it is what it is, but there isn't anything wrong with people fearing the loss of the aspects of the hobby that they enjoy. Not all change is good for all people, so I don't personally have a problem if people want to be all doom and gloom about the future of model trains. If people fail to adapt their hobby to the current market climate that is perfectly within their rights, and if they want to render their opinion that's fine too. Having worked on the customer service side I will re-emphasize that the number of people seeking easy solutions and not learning how to fix their toys is on the increase... if anything that will hurt market diversity as hobby shops and small manufacturers decide it is too much bother to deal with (something my local market has seen over and over again). Your mileage may vary. As to Athearn, I stick to my guns... increased production runs to support availability, and more of what they offer in HO scale. Frankly, that goes for Walthers too.
I agree with most of what you are saying. When it comes to trains (which this forum is about)...I just believe a RTR product should be RTR outta the box. You shouldnt have to 'tinker' with a RTR from the get go to enjoy it. On the flip side of the coin...even an RTR will require maintenance as time goes by. The consumer should be able to fix a piece of ballast that got into a gear...remove crude off wheels...and pet hairballs that got on axle points that affect running. Taking it back to the dealer about these problems is silly at best. Learn to fix and maintain it. Just dont tell me its RTR when its not when I first take it out of the box ;-) As far as athearn and/or walthers...If they truely arent interested in nscale...quit throwing a bone out there now and then to try and convince us you are...just to get us to go to your website in hopes that we will check out the other junk that doesnt interest us !!! It reeks of 'bait and switch'....JMO For Horizon...I wish them the best in whatever happens.
Rick, I'm curious what you mean by "peer pressure in clubs." Are you talking about what the club as a whole models, in terms of prototype, era, scale, and forth? Or are you talking in more basic terms such as standards, which would include things such car weights, coupler heights, wheels, and the like? Dieter Zakas
LOL Someone else that knows how to use adages. I see, said the hammer as it picked up the saw ... So who is the real weirdo? Me? Could be. It all depends on perspective and one's belief system. Well, to answer your question. One club I know of models in HOn3 and everything has to be to their standard. You can't operate on their track unless the equipment is up to said standard. Don't get me wrong but I actually support that and should I join this club, I would comply. Keep in mind I'm still working from my own authority and not theirs. Peer pressure and working from one's own authority, has been defined so many times and can easily be found in the dictionary. So, I won't waste your and/or my time redefining it. Usually, you have as many opinions as there are club members and what not in a model railroad club. These ideals, values, can be translated into club goals and can take off in so many directions often times working negatively toward the overall performance of the club. Ie., A club went to all the trouble to hand lay track and did a darn good job of it. Maintaining it became a problem. The newcomers enjoying the benefits of flex track wanted to change everything out. Can you see where this is going. The grey beards, said no way... you wouldn't be respecting our work. Grey beards, few in numbers were out voted... gave up and left the club, Newbies took it over and now they are dealing with the problems flex track brings. Sigh! Politics can be a real issue where one person wants to be in charge but if he or she should manage to get the votes and be elected to said position they (he or she) would turn into little tin god's or dictators. We have one in our group who is always nit picking at whoever and whatever "I told you that wasn't the way to go about this, you should of listened to me, that's the dumbest idea I ever heard, why don't we have a president" I said shaking my head. No appreciation for those who do coordinate activites and give of their time and out of pocket expenses. Did I mention we aren't an official club. A round robin group that likes it this way. A group of guys enjoying each other's layouts. . Oh and the worst layout in the group....maybe I shouldn't say so BUT... you guessed it. Should said person, ever become a president of an MR group or:wideeyes: organization....God help us all. Ok, I don't know if I made my point as clear as it could be but if you have no idea of what I've been talking about....join a club. Let time, interaction with club members and experience be your teacher. Don't take my word for it. There are clubs where the rules are more lenient then others. You can learn much from the old hounds in these groups, if you but give them a chance.
Rick, you sent that one right over the plate and I had to swing. Let's look at something else here. First, nothing negative, just facts. Athearn brought out a VERY nicely detailed truck line and stock was plentiful. I bought fifty for resale. Then the acquisition by Horizon and they promptly dumped the entire stock for less than cost to a couple of close business associates to get them out of the inventory. This happened at the exact same time that I had just placed a very large special run order for the truck frames, tires and axles and it was nixed by Horizon. Of course after that, the molds became embroidered in a who owns what fiasco and I doubt that the items will ever be run again because they did not sell out instantly. Whom is to blame for that; Athearn, modelers, unknown?
Bob, You hit it out of the park. About corporations in general. If a corporation see's it's sales are falling off, volume of product is collecting in warehouses, they will look at spinning off various entities of the company in hopes they will survive. Now that could apply to the base company left behind or the new spin off striking out on it's own. Athearn has a good name, reasonably good product and has the potential of surviving. If they go back to their root's. Of course that's my opinion, my two cents. There is a reality, that most of us aren't seeing and that is the impact this administration is having on the economy. However, that's getting political so I best save the discussion for another time and place. Other then to say we haven't begun to see how it is going to impact our hobby.
Well, modelers can be removed from that list, as they would have been outside this whole process. Expectations, had there been any of an instant sellout, by anyone in any business is foolishness. Such a scenario is the stuff of dreams, and wonderful if it should happen. Building any sort of enterprise around that as a requisite is an open invitation to fiasco.
You can have instant sellouts every time if you announce a product, accept pre-orders up until a stated deadline and then produce the exact quantity required to fulfill the number of pre-orders received.
After all my decades in this and other hobbies, I am well aware of this possibility. I am talking about the ignorance of having any such expectation. Two completely different aspects here. The latter being a fool's paradise.
I really didn't know we all cared this much about Athearn. I only own one piece because it is the NM RailRunner. IMHO Mike
Mike- Actually I am just discussing Horizon, as they are a significant force in the hobby business. Presently, I only own a small hand full of Athearn N items. In the past, I had a fair amount of their HO.
So did I but Horizon has already done NOTHING to bolster Athearn. IMHO The Employees at the shows I have been to echo that as well. Mike
I only own one piece of Athearn rolling stock as well (a milk car) but, for brick and mortar hobby shops, Horizon is a key factor in keeping the prices at Great Planes (the other major distributor) down. MSRP is what it is but the discounts offered to retailers are competitive and if the "new" Horizon owners decide to extract themselves even further from N scale, or trains in general, then Great Planes may decide that they don't have discount as much as they do, that might cause a slight increase in prices at discount hobby shops. Who knows, Horizon sells a lot more train stuff than just Athearn, it remains to be seen how committed they will be to model railroading. In addition to that consideration there is the fact thaqt Horizon seems to do a better job keeping items in-stock so retail stores might see longer waits on back ordered items if GP becomes an even larger part of the equation. That is all "the sky is falling" speculation, but it could happen depending on where the new owners see the most money coming from. When I worked in the industry R/C parts and accesories were our bread and butter, those cars break a lot (especially in the winter), trains took a back seat in day to day margins.
