I just returned home from the NMRA Convention and the National Train show in Sacramento. Both the convention and the train show were excellent. The N Scale presence was a little disappointing at the National Train Show. I missed Deluxe. Trainworks had product in another booth. Not to much N Scale for sale. Registered attendance at the NMRA Convention was around 2600. I heard attendance at the N Scale Convention was around 400. Then there is the Narrow Gauge Convention in September, and the list goes on and on. I wonder how an organization can have a national convention where only 400 people register? Our NMRA regional conventions get 150-200 or so attendees, but are presented as local or regional conventions. I seem to remember the N Scale Convention in San Diego had around 700 registered. Is the almost 50% drop in attendance because of all the competing shows, interest in the convention format not compelling enough to attend, poorly run show, other factors? I remember the NMRA National in San Jose had both the N Scale and NMRA at least side by side in the same building. At the Sacramento Convention, the S Gauge Convention was part of overall convention. There were some S Scale specific events (Auction, banquets, meetings), but everyone was welcome to attend either. Many clinics were not scale specific. It worked out well. Op Sig and LD Sig also were there and had separate events and clinics. Op Sig and LD Sig had a large room where anyone could hang out. It worked out well. Wouldn't it be better for everyone if a couple of these organizations got together and shared space, hotels, tours, and clinics? Wouldn't it be great if the N Scale Enthusiasts and the NMRA conventions were at the same place? Hotel rates would be good. Tours would be better. There would be many more clinics. With all the auctions and room selling the N Scale guys do, the scale would gain some new modelers. They could even be run separately as far as registration goes. Either badge would get people into all events. Extra fare revenuue would be kept by the group running that particular event. I don't know the politics involved. I'm sure there is some, but everyone would benefit from joint conventions.
Pete and of course all tuned in, You make a good argument and I think I can see your point. One of the biggest problem for some of us in our later years, we are on a set income. No cost of living raises for the last three years. And the CL has gone up at least 33% since they... cut us off. Translating we can't afford to make these shows. Cost of gas, groceries, prescriptions, rent and etc.. We,ve done well to hold our heads above water. Not to forget there are others who don't have any source of income. We have thousands on unemployment and don't forget those whose who've run out their benefits and are doing the best they know how to eek out a survival. Well, I could go on but I think you can see my point. I doubt very much that we are through the worst of it. Like some of you I'm disabled due to a heart problem and can't work. Lucky to have a pentience of a income. Lucky to have purchased train stuff during my adult years and have a hobby to enjoy. Today, I don't even look for "New in the box". I'm looking for used stuff. I simply can't afford any of the coveted and envied new stuff. I can grudgingly do without and still have hours of fun with what I got's. Darn it! Grin. I have the RoundHouse Gang Swap Meet coming up this coming weekend and because of other obligations and the lack of staff to back me up on running a sound system for a church program... I may not be be able to attend. As a retired aka former assistant hospital administrator type, you have to justify everything. You can't provide a service, unless it can afford to pay for itself. And you cant make decisions on a whim. You will find yourself sitting outside, looking in. There are consequences to the decisions we make and we need to be prepared to live with them. Well, I've cried in my beard long enough. I do hope things get better for all of us but I think we may need to learn how to milk a cow, grow a garden and raise chickens. Not grinning. How can they do it? I think is the question you are asking. Did I get it?
Good question. I try to make my local Del Mar show every year. Health issues made me miss last December. I went to the NTS in 2008 in Anaheim. That is as far as I care to drive. Disturbingly I thought I remembered the attendance in 2008 NTS was near 10,000. This year in Sacramento 2,600? Economy, Sacramento, and Sacramento are probably the reasons for the drop in participation. This Sacramento site is really just for the Western US participants. You have to really be keen to want to go to Sacramento. The NTS has to be located in a major airline hub that folks don't have to switch planes to get to. As far as the other traveling trainshows I'm happy they are still around. But, you're correct, I don't see how they make a dime. Same old venders, same old tin junk, same old plastic junk, and same old grumpy guys sitting in a cluster protected by their modules. It is a wonder anyone even goes to these shows. I do though, and I can't explain why. Jim
Rick, I can teach you how to milk the cow, but getting it to freshen is a different story! Sacramento is, as Phil Jackson once said, a glorified cow town. It does not have the infrastructure to support a multi-venued collection of related conferences as is being discussed. This type of conference would limit the sites to maybe a dozen or so and those costs could be really high. San Francisco, Los Angles, Chicago, New York, Boston, Atlanta, Orlando, Seattle, Dallas are the only ones I can think of off the top of my head. It is a good idea in theory, but if a combined convention/show had 10,000 to 25,000 registrants, a lot of the cities would not be able to handle that large of a crowd in a common centralized area. ***** How could I forget Las Vegas!
Just curious, where did you get these attendance figures from? I think you might be comparing the 2008 "train show" attendance to the 2011 "convention" attendance...
Here's my lopsided thoughts. I suspect the attendance is down because of the N Scale weekends in Pennsylvania and here in Ohio and of course the forthcoming N Scale convention in Hershey PA June 22-26. Now for me that's a no brainer..If I could attend one show I would attend the Hershey convention because it stickily N Scale... As far as N Scale conventions..I would rather these be stand alone conventions and not jointly with the NMRA convention..It seems so immoral and maybe even blasphemous to share the same convention area..
I have seen a lot of joint efforts on conventions here in Oregon. One big factor here may be that there just aren't as many of us (about 3.8 million vs. over 30 million in California). There are also just lots of small conventions, where maybe there are only a couple hundred registrants, or there are one or two day workshop weekends, like the Pacific Model Loggers' Congress, which takes place start to finish in one day.
Tracy, Sorry, I haven't a clue as to where that number I mentioned came from. I thought I remembered seeing it in print in an NMRA pub at my LHS. Been awhile. The number seemed low when I typed it and it may well be low. Just checked and the figure should be 17,000 plus. Jim
Going to jump in here, though with an HO club. For YEARS, we have been struggling to get a larger N scale base. Why? Beacause we are a Model Railroad Club not an HO Club. It just so happened that over the course of 45 yyears, the HO layout got built, and none of the N scalers saw a point to building a second layout when they had one of their own at home to work on. You know what that did? It made the Model Railroad Show look like an HO Show. We have been trying for YEARS to get the other scales in, but because of little N scaling in the club, or the perception of such, the N scaler vendors don't come out. O scalers have their own deal someplace else, so they don't come out. And Vendors aren't really willing to do a show in hopes that their customers will find and follow them. If one show's a bust, they don't come back. And taht's that. As it stands, we cannot break the magic 500 our President wants. We get bdarned close, but we can't surpass it. That's just how shows tend to operate with N scale, or other scales in general. One size will always be dominate. I do find it odd to see N scale alienated from NTS, considering the Bulliten or whatevcer it's called now is riddled with "N scale this, Nscale that, see the gorgeous layout in Nscale." Not that it's a bad thing, but it seems a bit biased. Truth is, an overlapping show would be good to the Manufacturers, like Athearn and BLMA and whomever else who dabble in a scale outside their main focus. It should be considered. And i wouldn't be at all surprised to find that N scaler attendence is partly also NTS attendence, both for that reason, and that big, small, tiny, or rideable, a train show is a train show is a train show. And I suspect Vendor crowding wouldn't be as sbig a deal either. What I don't want to see is a ratio of vendors to scales. THAT kind of ridgidity will kill a show. But, is the Sacramento Show sapping the N scale show? I doubt it. Not 300 people's worth. I'd say 100 is more like it. The rest beign other N scale shwo in other parts of the country, or they aren't going to anything.
The 2600 was for registered attendees at the NMRA Convention, not the National Train Show. I don't know their attendance figures for NTS. I left before it was over.
David: I think combined conventions would be in the 3K-5K range with 5K being on the high side. I agree Vegas would be a good draw. PSR had a successful convention there a couple of years ago. Pete
Portland will host the 2015 NMRA National Convention. Medford is the site of the 2012 N Scale Convention AND the 2012 joint PNR/PCR Convention both are within a month of each other. Seattle has the 2012 National Narrow Gauge Convention.
I didn't talk to any N Scalers that attended Hershey. No one I talked to even considered it. Some vendors were at both. I know Micro Trains was. I didn't go to the NMRA Convention or the NTS thinking there was going to be much N Scale, and there wasn't. (Wait until the NMRA at Grand Rapids next year. A couple of the committee members didn't know what N Scale was. Just kidding, kinda) There was much more On30, On3, HOn3 than there was N Scale. I went for the clinics and tours. All the clinics I attended were not scale specific. That's why a joint convention would probably work.
Today was the first time I ever looked at a NMRA schedule and it never occurred to me that it was only once a year. By the looks of the previous locations it’s no wonder I’ve never been to one. I sure wish I knew this earlier because I would have made an attempt to go to the Sacramento show. My wife has relatives near there so it wouldn’t have been a complete waste if the show wasn’t any good. The rest of the NMRA shows are too far for me to ever attend. I wonder if they will ever be in Las Vegas?
I will note conventions in general are down across the board. Some of that is the net and video meetings in biz can get the same accomplished without the air fare and hotel costs. Some is the economy, because face time is still the best marketing. Maybe some is social responsibility - hard for companies to be seen as sponsoring booze fests out of town for their employees in this day and age. I endorse the ideas of more joint conventions. Its hard for most modelers to justify it. I have been to a few nationals, but only when I was or could arrange business or a broader vacation in the same area. Great show. However, WGH has become a pretty good show, too. They seem to draw 20-30,000 for their weekends. I don't know if that is advertings, only being in a city once (potentially, they could come back, but I don't know if they have, and it isn't annually) And, it could be like sports. Not many watch the national games of the week anymore, preferring local teams. Is the mix of local experts giving clinics on local topisx (if there is such a thing in MR) more of a draw? Or, it is just cost? And time? I know a lot of guys here in DFW go to OKC, Temple, San Antonio, etc. for a day trip. Taking near a week to see the National Train Show? Not many.
Judging by he numbers on the name badges, the total registration at the National N Scale Convention in Hershey was something over 450. A lot of the "regulars" did not make it this year, and I have a feeling the still struggling economy, and the high price of fuel were the primary contributing factors. Up until about 10 years ago, it was common to have the NMRA and NTRAK conventions co-located. I went to Portland in 1994, Long Beach in 1996 and San Jose in 2000 where that was the case. I also attended the NMRA convention in Fort Lauderdale in 2002 with the expectation that there would be a chance for the N scale modelers to get together with the N scale manufacturers attending the convention. I was told by a couple of different manufacturers that a request for a room for the N scale modelers and manufacturers to meet had been made, but the request was turned down by the local committee. It was their convention, so they had the right to do whatever they wanted. However, the reason given for turning down the request was that there was not enough space in the convention center. This seemed a little odd to me because I remember seeing a number of rooms in the convention center that were mostly empty. But after attending the last seven National N Scale Conventions, I can say that for me, a smaller convention is actually more fun. You certainly get more time to talk to the manufacturers, and you come away with a lot of friendships, and sometimes even a lot of raffle prizes! Carter
Could it also be that the convention took place on 4th Of July week/weekend? I mean, people usually have other plans during that time. I thought it was sort of strange for the convention to fall during that week/weekend.
I think the number one problem right now is the economy as stated earlier. Because of work, I attend a lot of model airplane shows, mainly Radio Control but some free flight as well. The last two years, attendance has been low in all genre's. The guys who fly the big stuff that require a large truck or SUV with a trailer to haul their planes and equipment are obviously affected with gas and diesel prices more than the guys who fly small electric or free flight who can show up with a Prius. As pointed out earlier, many of us have not had a cost of living raise in three or more years. I worked for the largest distributer of model and hobby products for three years and only received one cost of living raise. When the cost of gas, health insurance, food, as well as other house hold items goes up, but our pay stays the same, the budget has to be adjusted. The average trip to a convention will have the things like gas or air fare, hotel rooms, food and admission. This all comes out of our pocket before we can lay down some cash for a new locomotive. Another problem of the economy and the effect on shows is attendance due to down sizing. I heard a few people I know could not come to Galesburg RR Days because their work schedule would not allow it. Many companies let go of whole departments and have given the responsibilities to the employees that have been left behind, sometimes causing longer work hours for the few lucky enough to still be employed. My girlfriend has seen this directly and my old work buddy who was busy enough before I left is even more busy now, because he inherited some of my old responsibilities. Will my old position be filled in the future? Probably not. The fear of having a job or not has given the employers the upper hand as it always does in a weak economy and so people do not plan the week long vacations as much anymore, everything is dictated by the work. That along with the economy has really affected show attendance in general. When I first moved to East Central Illinois in 1998, there seamed like a train show almost every weekend from January to May and August to December, with in an hours drive. A quick look at my schedule this past spring shows that well over half of those shows went the way of the Rock Island. Between the shrinking personal house hold budgets we have and our time compression, many of the smaller train shows have gone. Sign of the times.
Another factor in the attendance of THIS show, is the location. I recall Cinncinatti having low attendance. As I said, some bring their wives and try to make it a more rounded vacation, and sadly, Cincy and Sacramento don't have much allure beyond the convention. In addition to combining conventions, I could see more careful consideration of where they are held from the fairer sex perspective. This is happening in other business related conventions, as well. While not a great RR town, many groups are going increasingly to Orlando, Anaheim, Vegas, etc. Of course, Vegas in summer may not be great. Just a thought or two.
As an interested observer of these things, and one who is outside ther US, can I offer a few other factors: 1. Office holders and organisations not willing to give up their "national" show or convention, these things bring kudos and standing, even if it is only in the mind. 2. In a nation as large as yours with four or five distinct regions that people reside in, and I would suspect that they rarely travel out of, can any show really claim to be "national"? Or are they really supra-regional shows? How many average modellers from New York are really going to go to a show in California, Florida or for that matter Illinois? How many San Diego modellers are going to a show in Seattle or San Francisco for that matter? If a show was truly "national" one would hope for say 5-10% of the national modelling community to attend. Cheers, Chris
