Ok, I was finally able to contact BLW and my track order is shipping today. I have probably 12 or 14 peco c55 #6 and #8 turnouts coming. Planning on getting the trackwork started on my layout this week. But I have a question on wiring for DCC. I have been reading the wiring for DCC website dealing with Peco turnouts. I have re-read it and I am wondering if you really have to cut the turnouts? I would rather not have to do this. I am a computer geek, but not an electrical geek, and I can usually figure this stuff out, but I am not so sure about this. Cant you just use the electrofrog turnouts as is for DCC? Can someone help me? Thanks Craig
Correct me if I am wrong, but all you HAVE to do is add insulated rail joiners on the two rails leading directly to the frog.... At least this worked for me with no problems, but I'd love to know if I was doing something wrong!
You will have to cut just ahead of the frogs with a dremel, too. Just got done wiring for DCC with the help of Soo/Milw/CNW and this was frustrating to us, but we got er done! Not really hard after you've convinced yourself to make the first cut.....
I am new and still learning myself and I plan to use Peco when i am ready to design my layout. From what I read online, I too was under the impression that you only need to insulate the frogs. Can you show a picture where you would make the cuts?
I am using Peco C 55 Electrofrogs and DCC. I personally see really no need to cut the turnouts if you put insulating joiners on the two tracks leading to the frog (which is a requirement to avoid shotrs in most places anyway: Exceptions are stub-tracks). In a few places I have the insulation joiners or gaps further away from the turnout. I did that when the track had a "natural" gap close by anyway, like where it crosses an access hatch. What happens is that the train will create a short crossing the gap if the turnout is thrown the wrong way. Not good, but probably better than to rerail the engine as it runs into the "wrong" turnout. If the insulation joiners are right at the turnout the engineer will hopefully see that he is about to run a wrong turnout and throw it accordingly. If not he will create a short. If you have a yard ladder and only insulate the outgoing tracks (and not the tracks between turnout) the train will short if any of the yard turnouts is thrwon the wrong way. So if you are careful aligning your switches the right way (and can accept the occasional short failing to do so) there is no need for cuting up the PECO electrofrogs. By the way: It is necessary to clean the point rails and stock rails once a while, as the switch works only if they have proper electrical contact. A q-tip with some cleaning fluid works very well for this.... I hope all of this makes sense: Difficult to explain without a diagram Cheers Dirk
You don't HAVE to cut frogs, unless you don't want to put insulating joiners - which you want to put. The main issue with Peco turnouts is they're not actually DCC-Friendly in that both the points have the same polarity, and the point close to the stock rail has an opposite polarity. This could cause a short if a wheel touches the point while rolling on the stock rail. Personally, I never had problems with my Peco turnouts on my old European-style layout (bigger wheelsets, pizza cutters flanges), so I guess low profile metal wheels or almost-pizza cutters engine wheels would not interfere with turnouts points, therefore not shutting down the booster. I'm now using Atlat C55 on my SP layout, so I don't have any frog/points issues anymore
Ok, so let me make sure that I have this right. 1. I dont HAVE to cut them, as long as I use insulated rail joiners on the two rails that connect to the frog (the inner two rails near the diverging route)? 2. And if I have a yard, it was mentioned "If you have a yard ladder and only insulate the outgoing tracks (and not the tracks between turnout) the train will short if any of the yard turnouts is thrwon the wrong way." What are the outgoing tracks? I am planning on having a yard with stub end tracks. Any more insite to this? 3. So if I dont cut the rails, and use insulated rail joiners, AND the switch is set wrong, AND I run a train past the insulated rail joiners on the inner two rails near the frog, a short will occur? What will this short do to the electrical equipment? Will it fry boards a such, or will it just trip the booster, which will need to be reset to start running again? Thanks Craig
If you don't cut the rails, you still have a potential short if the back of a locomotive's (or any metal) wheel touches one of the point rails. I don't think this is much of a problem with a new turnout, but as it gets used (or misused by using a finger between the points to throw it) the point rails loosen and become more likely to cause this type of short. As a worst case scenerio, if you short a locomotive this way and the booster doesn't trip, you could melt the truck of the locomotive. Jason
As Jason mentions, there is a remote possibility of a short between the open switch and stock rail with a metal wheel passing through it. When I say remote I mean that the gauging of the wheels needs to be very tight to cause this. Whether the switch rail becomes loose enough over time to cause a problem I haven't seen, due to the massive clearance of the open switch from the outset. So, by cutting the rail between the frog and heel (pivot point of the switch rail) you effectively electrically isolate the open switch rail from the closed switch rail, both of which would be the same polarity as the frog in unmodified form, preventing any shorts occurring through metal wheels touching the back of the open switch rail. The downside of this is increased wiring to tie the open switch to it's stockrail (optional but doesn't rely solely on the switch rail to stockrail contact point for power) and to supply power routing to the now insulated frog. Remember, the two rails from the frog will still need the insulated joiners to keep the track polarity separate on the diverging end. Again, with the open switch gap of Peco it’s rarely a problem. By saying outgoing track I think it means the diverging track, or that through the turnout. You can have the switches connected end to end with no insulation between them, provided you are powering from one end only. On each diverging track from each turnout the frog rail needs to be insulated. If there is another feed on each of those diverging tracks then both rails need to be insulated. In a word, yes! There has been instances of equipment being damaged from short circuits. I’m not certain of decoders being damaged but certainly wheelsets and trucks have been damaged in the past. Most, if not all, DCC system have some form of inbuilt protection. If you’re using multiple power districts from a single booster then you need to consider individual protection for each district. To protect yourself from any possible short circuit damage to locos, etc., use a circuit breaker, either electronic or lamp-based (really a load limiter). A 1156 automotive lamp placed in series with one leg of the track supply is a common, cost effective, load limiter used. There are commercial adaptations of this with provision for multiple districts on one board. This way only the affected district is shut down not the whole layout. A couple of drawings to illustrate the point of the additional cuts.
Wow, thanks. I guess what I get from all this is that, while you dont really need to cut them to make them work, it is a good idea to do it, as it eliminates the possibility of shorts. Is that the just of it? Thanks for the help everyone. Sometimes I hate being a newbie. lol
You're welcome. Remember, we're all newbies at something! The just of it is you don't need to cut them. It's a precaution if you like and certainly eliminates the possibility of a short. As has already been stated, there's a massive gap between the open switch and stockrail on Peco points (switches) so the chances are slim of a short occurring with properly gauged equipment. FYI, by modifying the switches to the above they become the very loosely termed 'DCC friendly'. The Atlas C55 switches are built with a fully isolated frog and they are internally wired to provide correct polarity to the rails on both sides of the frog - ie. the switch and stockrail are the same polarity up to the frog, and the diverging rails alternate polarity beyond. The left most rail is, say, + then next is -, then +, then -. If the frog is left unpowered a train can trail through the switch in the wrong position without shorting. If they have an operation mechanism attached (Tortoise, ground throw, etc.) the train will derail but not short until it crosses to the opposite rail.
REPlY: This is nonsense. You are going to have rails of opposite polarity in close proximity to each other regardless of the turnout. In the Peco electrofrog the point area is where rails of opposite polarity are in close proximity. In the Peco insulfrog and Atlas turnmouts the frog area is where they are in close prioximity. The Peco electrofrog has the added value of having a powered frog. The two frog rails need to be gapped after the frog just like they do in DC operation.
OK, wait a minute. I was just thinking about this, and here is a question.. DCC essentially provides constant 3.5 to 5 volts of power to the rails at all time correct? (and yes, I know it also sends a signal for the decoder, but I am just talking power right now). When running conventional dc, power is supplied to the rails. So what is the difference? Power is power, right? I mean, when powering in dc or dcc, the power through the switches is going to be power. So if they say to modify the peco switches for dcc, shouldnt you do it for regular dc as well? And if you dont have to do it for dc, then in my thinking is that there shouldnt be any problem with them in dcc. Right? So if these switches are causing problems shorting, isnt this a design flaw? I am just getting more confused. Especially in relation to the above post. Gapped after the frog like in DC?
I gapped my turnouts at the frog--at the narrow place where they come closest together--because I had suffered with a layout without gapped frogs and didn't want to repeat the experience--ever again--of switch points that don't make electrical contact. No more cleaning! Automatic power everywhere, and I love it. A second reason I did it was because so many people said it was safest for DCC, and I wanted my layout to be DCC-ready in case I decide to leave DC some day. The gapping--and the wiring for a switch--also allowed me to have a third benefit: a control board that showed switch position with LED's. I know it's very hard to take such a beautiful, precision (and expensive!) model and saw a big ol' gap in the rails. I looked at it this way: I leave gaps here and there anyway, to prevent track buckling in the heat--I guess if some day I forget to pay the gas bill it will come in handy. Cutting holes in the back of the switch and soldering on wires turned out to be quite easy with a little practice. (Make sure your 40 watt iron is good and hot and that the holes are big enough to allow you to solder without touching plastic rails). Once you have the gaps, simply place a tiny bit of styrene of the right width into the gap and cement it with CA. (For the frog gaps on Peco turnouts, I use a single piece of styrene that fills both gaps). Be generous: you want a good, tight bond, and the CA won't hurt anything. Let it dry overnight, then carve at it with a very sharp #11 blade until you can't tell it from the rail. Once it's painted, the gaps--actually styrene insulators--can't be seen. Many use insulating joiners, as you've heard. I don't know whether this is a good way to prepare for DCC or not--but if it is, I would still leave gaps and use styrene fillers. The insulated joiners just look too bulky to me.
Generally 12-16V at all times dependant on system and available adjustments. It's a quasi AC waveform. Power is power but the delivery is different between DC and DCC systems. With DC the voltage when applied turns the motor. The higher that voltage the faster it turns. It's directly applied to the motor through the frame halves and pick-up method from the rails. With DCC there's a constant voltage on the rails which is picked up by the same method as DC except the motor is isolated from the frame. The decoder does the work of the DC powerpack - ie. it rectifies the incoming DCC voltage and applies the variable DC the motor according to the 'instructions' sent by the command station. That is a logical conclusion. The main difference is the apparent voltage and available current which causes the heartache. DCC generally has a higher current availability than your normal DC powerpack plus it's a higher constant voltage. It becomes an 'in case of' consideration. {quote]So if these switches are causing problems shorting, isnt this a design flaw?[/quote] Not particularly. The designed scale +12" gap between the open switch and stock rail prevents the problem being constant. It's when something is ill-adjusted that the problem will manifest itself. The design itself makes for simpler production and more consistent pick-up with the live frog feature, though I'm not a fan of the gap used to provide it. Yes, it needs to be gapped after the frog regardless of power source, assuming you have other power feeder/s beyond the switch (see below). If you look at the images I posted above you will note why there needs to be insulation on the two rails departing the frog. If there's no insulation there will be a short circuit due to the live frog. In fact, if you ignore the two gaps I added you will see the polarity of the rails as they come from the factory - one polarity on the open side stockrail, the other everywhere else. Take out the insulation after the frog and you will have a short circuit with the next block. Now, if it's a single switch into a dead-end siding with no additional feeders in that siding, then there is no problem so the insulation is not needed. Of course you will be reliant on low contact resistance between the closed switch and stock rail as this will be the sole source of power to that siding when the switch is set for it. At any point that the switch is not aligned for the siding both rails in the siding will be the same polarity, whether + or -, DC or DCC.
The error in your logic is when you said: "And if you dont have to do it for dc, then in my thinking is that there shouldnt be any problem with them in dcc. Right?" That is incorrect. You do have to do it in DC also. The reason is that the frog is live and has both (+) and (-) rails attached (behind the frog) to it so you end up with a dead short no matter which way the points are thrown. By gapping these two rails you interupt the flow of (+) and (-) electricity to the frog from these two rails so that the frog is only powered by whichever rail the points are set against. In effect the points not only direct the traffic through the turnout but also the power. The advantage is the frog is powered rather than dead. The disadvantage is that you are relying on good contact between the poit rails and the stock rails to power the frog. That is solved by a set of secondary contacts.
OK, maybe one more try with a picture. The yellow insulated joiners which you will need with either DC or DCC. The red is to gap and isolate the point rails to prevent a possible short with the backside of a metal wheel. This short can happen with DC or DCC. The difference is the potential outcome of the short. A DCC short can actually melt the plastic on your locomotive's truck if the booster doesn't shut down. Best case, you'll just keep shutting down the booster. Cutting the point rails will also require rewiring the turnout which is why a lot of people won't do it and will in fact argue against it because they don't want to do the work. The chances of shorting against the point rail are not that high, but it is possible. The are many pages dedicated to the rewiring if you choose to do it. Jason
Jason has the gaps in the right place. I added the red jumpers to elimate the stalling of improper point contacts. This is how I did the electro frogs on Rossford yard's layout. adios wyatt
Actually, when talking about turnouts, the main difference between DC and DCC is how shorts are treated. - in DC , when a wheel hit an opposite polarity point, it probably generates a tiny spark and perhaps you wouldn't even notice it. - in DCC, when a wheel hit an opposite polarity point, it surely trip the booster causing the layout to shutdown. That's why you don't need to care too much about non-DCC-friendly turnouts in DC.
But you still have a dead area between the gaps and the yellow isulated joiners. Plus you have no protection if the engine should derail in the turnout [Like that never happens!] and cause a short. So your best solution is to have a fast trip on your booster to shut down the power before you melt a truck.
