Does Athearn have something against N scale?

Incidentally, when I met Chuck, and found out that he actually works for Athearn, I asked him if they would be releasing an FEF-3. His reply was, "We will never." and told me about the tool & die costs, which were estimated to be around half a million dollars.

I either he was throwing me a curve, or they had contemplated doing it, but ultimately discovered it was financially unfeasible.

 

There's an obvious solution to those who are unsatisfied with the current situation:

START YOUR OWN N SCALE COMPANY.

 

Kato USA is in Schaumburg, IL. Lot's of western roads to take a look at in Chicago....

And someone let Matt know he's been relocated to Colorado. He is also based out of Chicago.

Facts, people. Facts.

 

When I look back to when I started in N-scale, (1970), and remember the products I had then, the stuff we have today makes me extremely happy! IMO people need to look at N-scale as a whole, not just what they want. I would love to have products that fit my model railroad, but I also want companies to make money!

 

Another thought on spreading out the road names (and tag teaming on the "start your own company" comment.

Perhaps its time for an N scale version of the old HO Bev Bel corp. All they did was custom runs of paint jobs. I don't know if its possible, but could some enterprising N scaler ask Kato and Atlas for permission to custom runs for smaller roads they will never do and then product paint only products to avoid the tooling costs, etc.?

It has happened before with Kato/Atlas collaborating, and Atlas letting IM use their SD 50 mech. Most companies have commissioned special runs for historical societies. Why wouldn't Kato want to sell maybe 200-1000 undec locos to a legit company for custom mini runs? A sale is a sale, right? It would be contingent on they agreeing to not run the bigs, like BNSF, ATSF or anything Kato has a remote interest in providing itself? Again, I would expect the price to be higher than Kato issued locos, but hopefully, not as hight as custom painted one at a time locos. Hopefully, this company could eliminate waste with its own pre-order system, but again, if you wanted a road name on a specific loco, you would of course have to buy when it was offered, since it would unlikely to be offered again.

Some would complain about that, but is there any system that no one would complain about? I just doubt its commercially feasible for any company to warehouse a bunch of locos "just in case" C and O Charlie MIGHT want one 5 years from now. Granted, its tough to take out a loan to finish your loco roster......

 

Originally Posted by Inkaneer
Seems to me that is purely your opinion. I would think that less paint schemes means less buyers unless you are counting on everyone buying 5 or 10 of each locomotive. There are those who do but the majority do not. That is why Fox Valley is doing the RR's they are. As for more route miles, they mean nothing as no one models from LA to St.Louis.

Yes it is my opinion. What people have to do is ask themselves is which position is the more reasonable one. I would think my position is supported by FVM doing GEVO's in A&M and V&O paint. First of all these are HO model railroads not 1:1 protypes. Second of all, neither one had GEVO's. So these are double Foobs. But I might get one of each to pull my MT giraffe gondola unit train.

Originally Posted by Inkaneer
"As for more interesting terrain, if you call treeless and flatness interesting then I guess so. As for those Western mountains, even at 1/160th they are hard to compress onto an average layout."

Yes, I know about the Northwest but most of the layouts I see are not of the Northwest but of the Southwest. Not a whole lot of trees around Tehachapi is there?

 

You mean they have South Branch Valley in HO TOO? Holy mackeral, it is worse than I thought! For those of you unaccustomed to this heavyweight of a prototype. The South Branch Valley RR [SBVR] is a 52.4 mile line owned and operated by the West Virginia State Rail Authority. It runs along the south branch of the Potomac River connecting Petersburg, WV with GreenSpring, WV. I wonder if FVM will paint one of their GEVO's for it. If they do I'll get two of them instead of the AM and V&O units to pull my MT giraffe gondola unit train.

 

Atlas will do custom runs of stuff. We've done a few cars for MiNi that way.

 

You are correct in part and wrong in part. Yes I do favor "belpaire fireboxed locos". But let's be more specific here. I favor the "belpaire fireboxed locos" of the PENNSYLVANIA RR. The Great Northern also had locomotives with belpaire fireboxes and I would not want someone to think of me as a Great Northernite. But the bias extends beyond the PRR although the PRR is probably the poster child [and a handsome one at that] for all Eastern Roads. How about the RF&P or the Erie [not the Erie Lackawanna]. How about the NY&O or Clinchfield or Seaboard. I am gladdened to see that the wagon top boxcars and cabooses of the B&O are now finally being made.

 

All I have to say is:

Kitbashing and Custom painting is still a hell of a lot of fun! If that's what I have to do, I will still thoroughly enjoy N scale doing that! I'll never leave for the over-sized HO either!

 

Know what the problem is with these complaints? They go into the ether. There's not enough collaborated communication up tot he manufacturers about what we want.

If there are enough folks who want certain products announced, it will get announced! Manufacturers will not do artwork and spend money on advertising preorders if there's no known market!

How about a forum dedicated to validating desired loco and car types, or new roadnames for existing products, where people can "sign up"/preorder those? Atlas, IM or others would absolutely run a paint scheme if they had a thousand or more folks lined up ready to send credit card numbers. I feel like maybe some of us are forgetting that Atlas has run their GP's in some almost-unheard-of roadnames. Also, MR and others would be HAPPY to link and write about such a forum; more train sales = more magazine sales and online readership!

We need to show up at their virtual doorstep with a petition for each product!

Seriously, how can we get this going? www.makethistrain.com?

 

EMD F7A,

Hey, I'm all for that. Hey, it was Athearn who just asked for input on Facebook, albeit limited to paint schemes and not new tooling for the foreseeable future.

I do recall Atlas telling me that they made a few products based on internet wailing here and other forums, and from time to time, those things bombed badly. (U23 and C630 come to mind) I think certain big roads, and certain common locos (F, E, SD, GP) will always have more demand for total sales.

I mean if you think about it, the numbers of N scale IC, GT, or whatever modelers has to be quite small. If N is 15% of 400,000 model railroaders nationwide, or 60K, and that is split among four eras at 15K each (okay maybe transition or second generation might be 20K) and then among 20-30 roads (for that period, obviously much less today) then you might have 750 -1500 buyers for any given product. And, if 300 is a minimum run for a new paint scheme, you need at least a third of those, some buying multiples, to break even. In most product scenarios, they assume far lesser percentages will buy, and I doubt you would get much more than 10-20% of those, between those who are broke, already equipped, etc.

The few here, perhaps stuffing the ballot box, may not be representative of what will really sell, unless the CC number is debited in advance. Otherwise, I would bet there was a high chance of mind changing when the money was due.

In short, its a tough biz. If the market was there for the smaller and eastern roads, someone would fill it. As I have said, I surmise it will take breaking the traditional biz model somewhat, because if the traditional biz model could support more roads, I am pretty sure they would have done it by now.

 

Jeff, I don't disagree. One point to ponder is, will modelers pay more for their own scheme to be run? If Atlas can charge a premium for "special runs", why not a bit of tax on low-numbers roadnames? EJ&E, MoPac, Rutland, SP&S, etc.... I'm quite certain I'd pay an extra few $ for Kato to run some damn NP equipment LOL....

 

Exactly, and I did mention that above. I would guess there would be some bellaching, comparing their price to the ATSF price. The real comparison will be to a custom painted loco at another $50-100 above typical retail for an undec.

I guess the only real question is whether the big boys (Atlas and Kato) want to be bothered with less than "mass production schemes?" If so, great. If not, maybe an enterprizing entrepeneur will find a way. For the SD40-2, someone better do it quick, unless Kato happens to run extra shells/locos for their "next run."

Of course, since this is an Athearn thread, it would also be interesting, as someone mentioned, to hear how they decided on the FP45 (with limited roadnames) or commuter sets? How many NM Roadrunner modelers can there possibly be? 25-50 in ABQ and Santa Fe? Or TRE in DFW? The only saving grace I see, is that many of us tend to buy more colorful paint schemes for display or non proto running, and maybe that helps juice sales.

Ditto with Atlas and some of its locos like the Houston Terminal MP15. While I have seen some left over in the LHS over the country, not too many, and not too many on EBay either.

I can understand the frustration of a niche road modeler who sees those kind of paint schemes. I think worse yet would be Atlas doing it once and then no more locos. I recall the GP35 came in Reading, for example, but don't recall any other locos ever in that scheme. What would a Reading modeler do? Forward date to Conrail and be happy with a few Reading scheme patched with CR?

 

If we do something like the makethistrain idea, it better not be on Facebook. And I think that the manufacturers are kidding themselves that every single modeler is on FB. It must be more accessable.

 

Yeah, my FB is for friends & family. People I know. I want my train stuff separate because I actually pay attention to the train stuff haha....

 

I second that!!!! I dont know how long we have been screaming for Kato to do a NCL and it seems it rings into deaf ears. Kato has some type of beef with NP. And when I asked a rep at WGH in Portland, Or last year he said it was about the yellow not being correct and that NP modelers would not buy the product if Kato put it out for that reason. But wait a minute here, wasn't Kato the one that made the decision to go with pantones for colors? So their own desicion limits what they will produce because of accuracy. I dont get it.

As far as Atlas producing limited runs, I am up for that. They did this with the GP7 in the Cotton Belt daylight as well as Central California Traction. While I dont model either, it was nice to see something other than the norm. However, with that said, Atlas still is another mfg that I personally feel produces what THEY want to produce and not what WE WANT to see on the market. I have suggested to Atlas to modify their tooling on the GP 7/9 from 1996 just a little and make a low nose version of the model. I was VERY RUDELY told by the rep that there was no market for it and that Atlas was NOT going to make it.

I know Paul Graff is a member here and may or may not read this. If he does GREAT! If not, so be it. Paul you can PM me if you would like. I just wish that mfg's would listen to us modelers for once. I know we wont get everything we want, that would be unrealistic and not cost effective from a business standpoint. I get it! But just be open to our suggestions and not brush us off like a piece of dandruff on their shoulders. Don't give us the attitude and in short tell us to go F... off. Afterall, we are the ones making their paychecks for them right?

Sorry to go off on a rant. Back to original subject.

Ryan

 

As to NP yellow, my understanding is that EPA restrictions on paint materials have affected at least some colors being made. Not sure in this case, but I do agree that if the yellow was off, fewer would buy it, and more would complain, giving Kato a money losing proposition and a PR black eye. I can see how they wouldn't want to do THAT!

We have discussed locos like the chop nose geeps and GenSets here before. Again, my understanding is that each road had its in house variation, and thus, no tooling would be appropriate for more than a few roads, even using "close enough" foobs. Add our tendency to trash and not buy (see above) locos with even the slightest mistakes, and I can see how its hard for Atlas to make those low nose geeps. Similarly, I petitioned long ago for more data only freight cars to make my fleet look more realistic. Some retailers came on here offering me literally dozens/hundreds of their left overs from when Atlas did try just that.

It seems most folks buy more standard locos over specific ones that long time modelers like us prefer to tweak our proto fidelity. It also seems that a "purty" car will outsell a prototypical one, if not a eye catching paint scheme.

Add in the fact that "was nice to see" doesn't pay their bills, and the fact that no one from Atlas has even been even slightly rude to me at the NTS, and I cannot see Atlas either being rude, or for that matter not listening to a certain degree to all of us. However, forums are only one instance of input. In the end, if Rutland (or name your offbeat road) didn't sell the first time out, they get cold feet on making it again, despite a pre-order system that would let them cancel it later, again at the expense of a PR nightmare. I imagine that when the cancelled the IC GP40 a decade ago, it wasn't that they got no orders, it was they got 150 and needed 300. I wonder what they would have done if they got 250 of 300 required? Run it and take a chance just to satisfy those expectations of those who ordered?

50 locos at $50 each is a $2500 hit on a limited profit item. While Atlas could absorb that once in a while, I doubt they can absorb it too often in a corporate structure. Guys like Paul, who may recommend stuff, do have job security to worry about! Atlas pays their checks, we don't (until we actually buy something in quantity.) It is tempting to think we would all want to get in the MRR biz, but I know better! I already am in one hobby related biz (golf) and I won't make that mistake again......

Short version - I appreciate all these mfgs do for us. Lots more is available than I ever thought would be......prices go up slower than inflation and quality......and I have a 10 X 24 N scale railroad full of trains I was glad to buy, even if it has some gaps I would like to have.

 

The Dilemma

Here is the issue at hand. None of us can agree on one object to model or an acceptable price.

To further muddy the waters. The boys and girls on the east coast and mid-west want trains that ran through their valleys from the 40's through to the 70's. Count up how many railroads that stands for and you will be mass producing a lot of train equipment. The guys and gals on the west coast and and the continentall divide, wants railroad equipment from the same era but in their railroad zones. How many and who wants this equipment is the question.

How long did we have to wait for ready to roll D&RGW train equipment?

Better, from many business perspectives, that Microscale or some such company, takes the risk of making decals and the paint providers to supply us with tested railroad paint, for the lesser known railroads.

I had the privilege of working in a Middle Ohio, hobby shop. There the mid-western boys and girls would buy up the Santa Fe locomotives. I wondered why? Until I was invited to a club layout where they had stripped the paint off, applied the correct color of paint and decals for their midwestern railroads.

The market is there and can be tapped if but our model makers have the balls to do it. On the plus side of things...so far they've hit on some winners.

Saying it straight forward... it is a HUGE RISK. A hit and miss kind of thing. If the model doesn't come out true to the prototype and has any apparent flaws, you won't be able to move it off the hobby shop shelf. You have to remember it is the persnickity (rivet counters, that would include me) that you are making these models for. IF they don't like it....they will snub their nose at it. LHS dust collectors or shelf queens.

Allow me to give you one other example. Atlas came out with an HO, made in Austria, high nosed SD24. If I recall correctly (and that might not happen) it was painted in the Santa Fe, Union Pacific and Southern Pacific colors. None of these prototypes had this unit in their roster. Had they of made it a low nose you could of sold it to Santa Fe and Union Pacific model rail buffs. SP never did have the SD 24's. The only thing close to this unit was the cabless Union Pacific's. Other railroads on the east coast may have had this unit but I'ma not aware of it.

A blatant oop's on behalf of Atlas to create as realistic a locomotive as is possible. They set on our shelves until we priced them out cheaper then what we paid for them....just to move them.

So, if you think all the whining and complaining will change things (that includes my dissing off the pig) NO WAY!

The Pres's and CEO's will model what they want when they want. Despite the modelers wishes, buyer beware.

Exception being, the fine folks at MicroTrains, Intermountain and FVM. What they need is justification to model a particular prototype. Let them know what you want. They should be able to set up a collection system that will sort out the requests and track the total numbers. True blue, non-padded numbers is the key to justification of a new, never made before piece of train equipment. Not a reservation... just a request.

That be it from my kneck of the woods.