Does Athearn have something against N scale?

Logtrain Feb 26, 2013

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  1. Rossford Yard

    Rossford Yard TrainBoard Member

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    Hard to imagine Athearn's actual model guys going to make a big pitch for, say, and N scale Auto Rack to some bankers, but it IS a business. The new product justification process is probably a lot different than Craig M who just wakes up one day and says "we need modern reefers! I bet THOSE would sell!"

    And of course, back in the day, Irv Athearn had the same flexibility.
     
  2. Inkaneer

    Inkaneer TrainBoard Member

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    Did I say whose fault it was? I don't think so. All I said was that Nscale, as a scale, loses. Look, those N scale manufacturers are also HO manufacturers. So they can make the stuff in HO, as they are doing, and they could care less if someone quits N scale to go to HO. They will still have a customer. N scale loses but they don't. Now if you're into the fault finding game then you can blame anyone you want. But N scale will never grow in market share and HO will always dominate.
     
  3. mtntrainman

    mtntrainman TrainBoard Supporter

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    Okay, here is my $.02 worth on why N scale hasn't grown. My theory is that a large part of it is that N scale has developed a Western bias. Look at the big manufacturers. Kato, Intermountain, Athearn and to some extent Fox Valley are tilted to the western roads. That is not to say they do not do any eastern roads but the majority of their products are western roads. So what is an Eastern modeler to do? Go with Atlas and/or Bachmann? There you will find a better ratio of East to West but not enough to offset the western bias. This is especially true in locomotives. Now add to this the fact that the majority of the population lives east of the Mississippi River. MR did a survey some years back evaluating cities based upon the number of people who were model railroaders. They listed the top 10 cities and most were in the East. Now this survey was not scale specific so it included those in HO and O as well as N,Z,G,S and the live steam gauges. But my point is that N scale can't be ignoring the East and let those people join the HO ranks. But that is what is happening. There is not one manufacturer that makes Pennsy steam in N scale. In HO there are four. Lots of Pennsy modelers where I live and I'd say that 90% of them are in HO where they can get the items they want. But it is not just the Pennsy. It is all eastern roads. How can Nscale grow as a scale when N scale choses to ignore a major market?


    You are blaming someone...just wasnt sure who.You keep say things like "But my point is that N scale can't be ignoring...." Is "N scale" you are refering to modelers or manufactures. That was my only question. Relax...take a deep breath.
     
  4. Randy Stahl

    Randy Stahl TrainBoard Supporter

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    I don't think Fox Falley has enough product be put in a catagory yet.

    Randy
     
  5. BarstowRick

    BarstowRick TrainBoard Supporter

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    Actually, we have more variety then ever before in both HO and N scale. For those of you who are new to the hobby you have no idea how long we had to wait to get to this point. It's all perspective and I hate to think we will have to go back to waiting like we used to. Ahh...err...when Athearn was all but the only game out there. I haven't forgotten that.
     
  6. Rossford Yard

    Rossford Yard TrainBoard Member

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    A few of you seem to think the mfgs have an "unfounded" bias to produce western roads. Don't we think they are producing what they think modelers want? Wouldn't this max out sales?

    Granted, absent major market research, this is a broad based guess. On the other hand, it is one of the things the pre-order system is supposed to address. I am not sure why any of the mfgs couldn't tenatively announce a road with the clear stipulation they must get their minimum order (which to most, I hear, is 300). I guess they would tee off those specific road modelers even more if it was announced and then cancelled. I do believe Atlas cancelled some loco in the ICG scheme, however, so it is not unprecedented.

    Also, there is precedence from MT for charging different prices for different paint schemes, in their case, based on the number of paint passes. I would love to see some mfg announce some oddball paint scheme, again, let's use ICG as a good example, and tell us that price is TBD and may jump up to 15% above the "standard price" if the minimum isn't met. I know not all agree, and certainly the ICG modelers would cry foul, but if its a pay as you go system, or pay for what you get system, if running a scheme that loses money at, say, 150 orders, vs one that makes tons, like ATSF for the same loco, I think its fair. The ATSF modelers could cry foul at subsidizing other roads paint schemes right now, if they wanted.

    I can even see the marketing value of the "must meet minimum" scheme. If you are worried they won't run it, or think enough orders would lower your price, would you be more likely to put in an order to the max you could afford, closer to your maximum ever fleet needed? If your extra three locos put them over the minimum threshold, you might get the $100 MSRP vs. $115, granted, for five locos, so you pay $500 vs the $230 you originally wanted to spend.

    Or maybe, they get some shop like Wig Wag to "sponsor" a run of NM based road names, for example. Shake them down, but give them a better price, first sales opportunity or whatever. Sort of a cross between custom runs and regular sales.

    Not trying to get anyone upset, just trying to see if there would be creative ways for the mfgs to offer a wider variety of roads in a profitable manner. In reality, there has to be a way, no?
     
  7. Metro Red Line

    Metro Red Line TrainBoard Member

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    Even though I personally benefit from an alleged "Western bias," I agree it's kind of a silly accusation.

    The two biggest N-scale loco manufacturers, Kato USA and Atlas, are all based...EAST of the Mississippi River! (shock, gasp). And Kato's international HQ is as Far East as you can go :)

    Ironically, which company is putting out the NS heritage series locos, in all its iterations? Fox Valley. Based in Colorado...a WESTERN state.

    If there is a "Western Bias," it's more because of feasibility: Fewer roadnames (less paint schemes to worry about), more route miles and more interesting terrain (more modeling possibilities...Western mountains are taller and more majestic, Eastern mountains are mere anthills in comparison).
     
  8. JNXT 7707

    JNXT 7707 TrainBoard Member

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    Wow...well it IS certainly creative, but to me this is feeding into what is wrong with the hobby in every scale. Who can afford to throw out that kind of money? The manufacturers make us preorder everything now to avoid 'risk'. Ever see any preorder sale? Nope, you are paying a premium for the privilege of 'reserving' what you think your railroad can't do without. no more browsing, PREORDER.

    No, I don't have an alternate suggestion either, and in reality this WOULD work fine for some. The whole preorder thing though has just been a personal thorn in my side.
     
  9. Jeepy84

    Jeepy84 TrainBoard Member

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    I cancelled my Athearn email updates today and low-and-behold I find this thread, haha.

    If Athearn (Horizon, really) isn't interested in creating new tooling, is there a list of the tooling that they do have, or is the website/store of sold out stuff it?
    Second, were they really expecting huge returns on those commuter-line F59PHIs and Bombardier cars? In this time of economic woe, investing in tooling for something so small-niche and specialized is only going to end one way, low or no return on investment. I feel happy for the guys that wanted that equipment, but it isn't for me, and I get the feeling isn't for most of us.

    I guess from their old tooling, I could go for some freight cars, especially modern tank cars. They may be bland and boring, but they make a nice unit train.
     
  10. Metro Red Line

    Metro Red Line TrainBoard Member

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    I actually don't fault Athearn for that. Heck, Kato made a couple commuter sets themselves. Should they be faulted for such a "risky" move? Commuter lines are the new passenger roads when you really think about it. After all the roads folded their operations into Amtrak, finally we see more regional variety and service again. And mind you, Commuter Rail, being exposed to its own ridership and those who see the trains, are probably helping the hobby, by being a train that's more present in people's lives, thus opening the door for potential future modelers. I myself have a Metrolink set with a matching F59. Even though my layout is set a couple hundred miles away from Metrolink's service area, I see these trains all the time here, and I want to have models of them, just because. Now Metrolink has changed their livery, and I want Athearn to reflect that. I'm sure people from Miami, Seattle, San Diego, New Mexico, Dallas, etc will have a similar sentiment.

    I get kind of annoyed when I hear modelers gripe, "It's too modern for me" as if they feel entitled to something. I think it's kinda immature. I NEVER complain whenever manufacturers come out with old, small stem locos, GG-1s or old Alco diesels. If it's a quality model, great, even if I won't buy it. Because it could possibly mean the same level of detail/running quality could be found in their more modern offerings. Heck, if it's a REALLY good out-of era model, I'll still buy it, like when Athearn (speaking of which :)) came out with those bay window cabooses not too long ago. I bought one, just because it looked so good (plus I once had the HO blue box version). Manufacturers, regardless of scale, have to try to please everyone, and it's sort of impossible to please everybody. Besides, no matter what the era of what it looks like on the shell, we all want the most modern trains *under* the shell!
     
  11. Inkaneer

    Inkaneer TrainBoard Member

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    Maybe silly to you because you don't model an eastern road.

    This is not about where a company is located. Rather it is about product. Besides, if I recall correctly what Charlie Vlk said one time, Kato USA recommends but does not call the shots. As for Atlas, I think it and Bachmann are the only ones keeping a lot of Eastern modelers in N scale.


    Well when you consider this is a modern locomotive and only four American railroads had them [UP, BNSF CSX and NS] I can see why FVM would be scrambling to add as many paint schemes as they could. That explains the Allegheny Midland and the V&O which never existed as prototypes [They were HO model railroads]. And I won't even mention the Ferromex and the Kansas City Southern de Mexico.

    Seems to me that is purely your opinion. I would think that less paint schemes means less buyers unless you are counting on everyone buying 5 or 10 of each locomotive. There are those who do but the majority do not. That is why Fox Valley is doing the RR's they are. As for more route miles, they mean nothing as no one models from LA to St.Louis. But don'/tthink the Western roads had more track miles. The Pennsy had more route miles than any Western road. You see the Pennsy served many industrial cities with multiple mainlines. Not only that but the Pennsy carried about three times the traffic (measured by ton-miles of freight) as other railroads such as the Union Pacific or Santa Fe. The only rival was New York Central, which carried around three-quarters of PRR's ton-miles. As for more interesting terrain, if you call treeless and flatness interesting then I guess so. As for those Western mountains, even at 1/160th they are hard to compress onto an average layout.
     
  12. kmcsjr

    kmcsjr TrainBoard Member

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    Thanks for the clarification. all that said, I hope they one day release 2-6-0s an 2-8-0s w dcc and maybe delve in to other steam
     
  13. Metro Red Line

    Metro Red Line TrainBoard Member

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    Uh, gee, do you have any statistics to back this up? Nope? Okay, then seems to me that is purely your opinion too.

    LOL, shows how much you know The West...The Pacific Northwest and the Rocky Mountains are neither treeless nor flat. There are many people who model the Rocky Mountains (which is located between LA and St. Louis, BTW...) You're one of those people that thinks it's all badlands and cacti or something! That cracks me up.
     
  14. BoxcabE50

    BoxcabE50 HOn30 & N Scales Staff Member TrainBoard Supporter

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    And:

    I'm taking these two above statements as a joke. If not,.....
     
  15. SteamDonkey74

    SteamDonkey74 TrainBoard Supporter

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    Remember those bay window cabooses Athearn brought out? I remember people on this board raving about the detail vs. the MTL ones. They were nice.


    I don't think Athearn hates N scale, but I do sometimes wonder whether some N scalers have something against N scale. Anyone have any new projects going?
     
  16. John Moore

    John Moore TrainBoard Supporter

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    Not trying to throw anymore feul on the fire on the east vs west thing but.... I happened to open my monthly flyer that comes from the big catologue outfit we have all heard about. First page C&O. 2nd page NYC and Seaboard. Page 11 Conrail and L&N. A few more pages Conrail, B&O, PRR, Pittsburg & Ohio Central, South Branch Valley, Chessie, RI, B&O, B&M, WM, even Cass Scenic. All unfortunately in horribly oversized scale but suprisingly the majority of the listed locos were eastern roads. Point is that all the roads for east and west are fairly well represented in that scale, or there are decals for the roads not produced. Seems like the N scale offerings are heavily weighted to the western side though. I mean when I can get South Branch valley in HO ready to run.....
     
  17. Metro Red Line

    Metro Red Line TrainBoard Member

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    I don't think N scalers have something against N scale, but I think you bring up the gist of something, and that is our inferiority complex. Let's face it, we're N scalers because we love its various benefits: Longer trains, compact size, more scenery, more room for trackage, more generous curve radius compared to larger scales. When I used to be an HO scaler (circa 1980s-1990s), I was jealous of N scalers for those things...but not for their lack of product selection.

    So when we feel that the variety and selection of models we're enjoying is suddenly depleting, it's natural cause for concern...But we have to conform those fears first, lest we worry about nothing.

    When I became an N scaler, I hesitated jumping in until I was satisfied at the selection of models that I wanted. In 2006, things looked good and were getting better.

    I'm quite sure we have nothing to worry about, that it's more due to overseas factory issues that are not only beyond our control but the control of the model manufacturers.

    Until we have solid indisputable proof (i.e. a manufacturer putting out a press release that they are no longer manufacturing N scale models), then we should not fall prey to fear.
    Most of the things that we are afraid of don't really exist.

    Remember back in the '60s-'80s when we all thought we'll get nuked? We're still here, friends.
     
  18. robert3985

    robert3985 TrainBoard Member

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    I don't have a big problem with Athearn considering their China problems. I also have several Big Boys and Challengers on order as does my son, and most of my N-scale buddies since we actually have a layout to run them on they way they should be run. Yup, these are in addition to the several Challengers and Big Boys I already have, which will all get run regularly on the layout and at shows here in Utah, Wyoming and Idaho.

    Too bad that Chuck will no longer be running parts. I've had several very good experiences with him. You'll be missed Chuck.

    As to manufacturers making N-scale stuff here in the USA, that's one of the reasons I use Micro Engineering track, because it's made in the good ole' USA, and looks a lot better than Atlas 55. Lack of turnouts doesn't bug me since I roll my own.

    By the way, this thread is about 95% pure conjecture. It put me to sleep twice before I got through it. I am personally VERY HAPPY with the supposed western bias and I hope there'll be more biasing going on with an FEF-3, Baby Turbines and Verandas...all of which I will buy many of. All it would take is for Athearn to follow their HO marketing scheme...I'm all for that, as I've expressed to Athearn several times in the past year.

    In the meantime, I'm kitbashing and scratchbuilding cars and engines that are not available but which I want...such as my little fleet of CA-1 cabooses...which are not available ANYWHERE except at my own hand.

    Ciao!
    Bob Gilmore
     
  19. kalbert

    kalbert Guest

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    Ha ha ha, I was busy modeling for a week or so and came back to see what other folks were up to. 8 pages of Athearn trashing in a day and a halfs time! I didnt bother reading any of it, though judging from the most recent posts Kato must have been dragged into it too. High fives all around for keeping the flame going... Cant wait for next weeks Athearn thread!
     
  20. YoHo

    YoHo TrainBoard Supporter

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    I went to that catologue outfit's webpage and selected N scale and Locomotives and was presented with over a thousand options loaded down with east coast roads. Even restricting it to in stock only left me with 354 locos with fully 1/3 of the first page being eastern roads (didn't include CN as an eastern road even though it is) The second page is equally diverse. And of course I'm considering the Grangers to be western roads for this, so it's stacked against the East.

    Now, I've read enough of the N-scale forum to know that when Inkaneer says "west coast bias" he really means not enough belpaire fireboxed locos for sale and I understand that just because those locos are available doesn't mean they are of the quality the modeler is looking for and I certainly didn't go through every page, but I think the claims of bias are overstated.
     
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