Hey, does anyone know when BNSF is going to "hollow out" Stampede Pass tunnel? I heard some rumors awhile back that is was going to be this summer, but no more news lately.
They have been going to lower the tunnel "next summer" for some 10 years now. I heard that they are now hopeing the state will pay for it. Kevin
Are they hoping to make Stampede hi-wide capable? Lowering the tunnel floor would cure the height, but I dunno about wide traffic. Funny, BN had control over Snoqualie Tunnel of the defunct MILW for a period of time, and sold it off or otherwise abandoned it--the best engineered Cascade crossing available! No long tunnel asphixiation problems, 1.74/0.7% grades leading to Snoqualmie tunnel, hi-wide capable... Now a bike trail, IIRC. http://www.mrcd.org/main_line_snoqualmie_pass.html
I wonder why they'd hope for this? The state has been having some financial troubles, for more than a few years. I've a feeling the taxpayers would be rather unhappy. (Except Seattleites. Who'll for for any goofy idea.) BNSF is, after all, a mega-billion dollar corporation, with International affiliations. Boxcab E50
A couple of things here. Always be careful when reading writings of John Crosby. He has definitive political leanings. Which tend to heavily color what he writes. And he also makes a few historical errors. Snoqualmie pass was abandoned. I was directly involved in that fiasco. Which although Bressler was head of BN, and Crosby decries his actions, it was a mess actually done by underlings from the management team. Who did a whole bunch of things they weren't supposed to be doing.... :thumbs_down: Boxcab E50
[ Snoqualmie pass was abandoned. I was directly involved in that fiasco. Which although Bressler was head of BN, and Crosby decries his actions, it was a mess actually done by underlings from the management team. Who did a whole bunch of things they weren't supposed to be doing.... :thumbs_down: Boxcab E50[/QUOTE] Could you elaborate on any of that Boxcab? Kevin
Yes please. Looking back in the congested world of 2006, the abandonment of the Milwaukee seems one of the greats sins in modern railroading.
It's been nearly 20 years now. So pardon me if I slip here and there. It's fairly simple. The problem at BN, was tradition. Fall of 1980, they merged the Frisco. Common practice is that you bring on board hierarchy from the merged company. Thus the management team had a fair number of Frisco folks. It was essentially a promotion. And ladder climbers like to make their mark! The Frisco managers had no experience in the type of railroading they now faced. They knew tiny Ozark mole hills, versus the Rocky Mountains, deserts, seaports, and loooooooooong hauls. Nor did they familiarize themselves with past history, current needs, and future potential demands. Wish I had the comments handy, that Matt Rose made after he took command. It was basically 'what the **** have you done to this railroad?' So the management team set out to make their mark. By bringing about a quick cash inflow. Chop, chop, chop. Getting rid of long proven money making branches. Removing anything they (mis)perceived as redundant infrastructure. It is common practice, post-merger, to remove duplicated facilities. It helps the bottom line recovery. But in this instance, they did so blindly. Thus fell Stampede Pass. Taken out of service. The tracks east of there sold to WCRC. One viable route, removed. Not thinking of future growth, guess what happened? Stevens Pass is limited by tunnel air clearance timing. The Gorge is single track. And can never be doubled. Capacity was reached. So, they had to buy back WCRC, and re-open Stampede at great expense. Far, far exceeding the short term cash flow of just a few years previous. The SP&S was abandoned, and torn out between Pasco and Spokane. The NP and SP&S lines, between Pasco and Spokane, were being operated as seperated double track. Now it was single tracked! And did not have adequate siding capacity. Guess what happened after that? Millions, and millions had to be spent, extending sidings so it was not such a bottle neck. Thus another folly. They severed the GN transcontinental main east of Spokane. Then leased out the MRL for 60 years. (Those folks at WashCorp are smart. So you'd best believe they have something in their favor, when that 60 year mark is attained!) Anyhow, These two moves created the infamous "Funnel." Which they've spent milllions, and millions on sidings, etc. But can never relieve. Why? The GN Line is limited by Flathead Tunnel air clearance time. And they have to pay MRL for anything sent that route. Brilliant move, management team! In this same time frame, they continued pulling out rails wherever possible. Even some they didn't own. In several places. One that sticks in mind- They removed and scrapped, without ICC approval, at least a half mile of track in Great Falls. Which they did not even own! Oops. Finally, back to Snoqualmie Pass. They'd not completed the approval process for abandonment and removal. There is question as to authenticity of claims paperwork had even been filed. But they went ahead anyhow. Until someone made a phone call to a friend. Who had a buddy at the ICC. And the ICC immediately issued a cease and desist order. Their excuse for abandonment was cost of rehab. Which their estimate far exceeded that of private sector firms. (Padded? To carry their point? Probably.) Had they not allowed the line to lay fallow, it would have cost even less. Now, here's where you'll again hear the famous hue and cry "rotten ties!" FALSE! There'd been major track work on that line, as late as 1971! So proclaiming everything to be 30-40-50 and more years old, is false. I was there, and talked to the contractor removing those ties. He had to grade out any that were number one re-lay. And he was mighty unhappy, as so much of what he'd thought would be profit, was going to BN for re-use. "The rail is worn out." False again. BN lifted that rail, (except the 132 in curves), and re-used it! The primary work, would have been cutting brush, clearing drainage, aligning track and cleaning ballast. Yes. There was ample ballast. It was simply dirty. This is what caused the Milw slow orders, and derailments. When you take a mountain railroad, in a heavy rain and snow area, lay off most m-o-w people and gangs, ceasing all upkeep, after a couple of years, it degrades. DUH. That is what Milw managment in Chicago had dictated. It was a deliberate executive decision. Anyhow, once the cease and desist order was given, there were grass roots efforts. Trying to get the line preserved. Railbank. Or? Time was a factor. Too many BN friends in that State's government. And of course, no private sector party could step forward, as it was isolated track. So, when Spring arrived, the snows melted, the ICC could not legally hold the process. The rail trains were back. The land is barely preserved as a r-o-w. And this past winter, again barely kept so. Land that once paid taxes, a vital transportation corridor that can never be duplicated, and now eats tax revenues. Most likely would face endless litigations, in order to go back to rail again. The trailies will want to keep a trail. Which is not physically possible. And who wants those evil smelly trains in the beautiful forests? When they can have tens of thousands of trucks right next door....... All thanks to corporate railroad traditions. Oh well. :thumbs_down: Boxcab E50
And of course, this plays back into our discussion on High speed passenger rail too. That's a perfectly good route over the cascades laying essentially unused.
And I'll say the same here, as I did in the other thread. Back when I was involved in things such as this, HSR and Snoqualmie Pass were a serious topic. The major problem with Snoqualmie Pass, is many curves. So speeds would be held down somewhat. The portion of line between Ragnar, and Humpback Creek. On either side of that stretch, it's not a problem. The curves can be mitigated. But is there a funding source? A bold and determined leader? Courage in Olympia? (Answer to that last- NO!) The area from Easton, onward toward the Columbia River, has been building up for many years. Primarily of those people escaping west side taxation, skyrocketing real estate prices, crowding, etc. The time has passed, when serious planning for this should have actually been completed. But someone will probably want to study, and re-study. Wasting precious time. And money. Such people have become a bottleneck in the process. Time for someone of true vision, a giant, and driving force, to emerge. Where is that person? 100 years ago, we seemed to have many. Now? None. Boxcab E50
Sadly, there's no James J. Hill around anymore... Think BNSF ever will despeate enough to buy and rebuilt Snoq. Pass? By the time they get that desperate, I'm betting the area will have been built up and it will be even more inpenetrable than it is now. BNSF has some big bottlenecks to deal with--how bad are UP's bottlenecks? I assume (and we all know what that means) that UP has its own share of operating headaches, but are any as big and capacity-straining as Cascade, Stampede & Flathead tunnels? I don't know if UP considers the Moffat Tunnel a major bottleneck, because the Wyoming line is only 100 miles north, the ex-DRGW is a secondary freight route.
As it now stands, the r-o-w is State owned. Would they part with it? I suppose that's possible. I feel a fair amount of doubt. Biggest obstacle, as I'd earlier noted, would be getting back to that point where track could again be laid. The expensive time losses of studying, and studying, and studying. Which is a pure waste in this instance. Plus the numerous long, drawn out litigations you know will ensue. This is probably why no consideration has even been made, to date. :thumbs_down: Boxcab E50
The NIMBY folks will outcry in massive numbers... Taxington is likely full of bleeding hearts that will complain at the mere thought of installation of rails on Snoq. Pass! Never been there, but from what I have heard.... You noted severe curves on Snoqualmie--how bad is Stampede?
I would think that UP isn't much better off. They have 2 OK, but inferior to SF routes into LA. Donner is H/W restricted. Though there is the perennial rumor that the summit tunnel floor will be dropped and tracks relayed. It's not a phrase you hear very often, but Southern Pacific showed considerable foresight by hanging on to that pass. Feather river is a nice route when it isn't raining with rock slides etc etc. Don't know enough about the route in to portland over the blue mountains. I've seen double stack trains moving over the line, but I have no ideas about the issues with winter operations. Here's the question. Is reopening Snoqualmie Pass going to cost more then fixing up Stampede or Steven's? I can't imagine fighting NIMBY's in court could be mor eexpensive then the earthwork involved with those other two.
I'm not sure they'd be considered severe. But they held track speeds down to 25-35mph. The line snakes it's way along the face of the mountain. On Stampede, there are a couple of good curves. Borup Loop is one. But they're a lot different from Snoqualmie Pass. Boxcab E50
The problem is that fighting NIMBY's, usually takes extensive periods of time. Years. Big delays. Huge legal bills. Construction costs mount just from inflation, while this goes on. The expense of this process, adds to any price tag for a line upgrade, or re-opening. Those people from Auburn, east to the Tacoma Watershed, are still complaining about all the present BNSF trains, noise, pollution. Whine, whimper. And nobody has yet pinned the news on their noses, that present operations are much less than those of the NP, the yard is miniscule by comparison, and pollution is far less with modern power. Because nobody learns history in, (what passes for), "school" these days. Plus, there is the old, and ever irrefutable responsibility of any prospective land owner- LOOK BEFORE YOU BUY...... You buy next to RR tracks, you've waived any right to complain! On ex-Milw Snoqualmie, there is essentially no earthwork to move. The r-o-w is all there. One bridge to rebuild. Some culverts to upgrade. New work would be only the Ravensdale Cutoff. It's through unihabited land, already mostly owned by a RR subsidiary. Across one county road. Needing one bridge. Absolutely nothing major. On Stampede, while there may be some line tweaks desired, The Tunnel is what needs attention. Either their present one. Or a new bore. New? OUCH!!!! $$$$$$$$$$!!!!!!!!!!!! Meanwhile, the need grows, and grows. While more trucks are built and sold every day. More roads are crowded, dangerous. And construction of highways, continues to move dirt, trees, etc, etc.... Boxcab E50
What I always wonder in these types of conversations is: "What's the solution?" Not specifically about Sno pass, but issues like this in general. Do we have a voice here? Is it worth making that voice heard? Identifying the problem is easy. Fixing it?
We indeed have a voice--the question is; will anyone important enough listen to us? 26 years of non-use would degrade things a bit, but I would think the route would need little in the way of maintenance to bring Snoq. up to snuff. Is there anyone at BNSF we should email to discuss this? Asking a low-level functionary would be fruitless; who has Matt Rose's email addy?
Yes. You have a voice. However, the main thing you can say here, is "please raise my taxes." What exactly is your plan? You'd better have something concrete, before even starting to stir the pot. BNSF freight service? HSR? Both? How far east do you want to push? Reconnect at Cabin Creek? Or try to use more of the old Milw toward Ellensburg? What hurdles there? Another missing bridge, Cascade Rail Foundation at South Cle Elum, r-o-w gone through CWU. BNSF would likely listen, if someone else would fund all. That means it would be done their way. Their standards. Every penny from initiation, paying for the legal wranglings, on through rehab, publicly funded. Of course, thereafter, upkeep would be a different subject. Talk to BNSF first? They'll say "show us the money." Who to tap at State and Federal levels, for a massive funding project? King County Executive, State Congressional folks, Governor. Prove to them that this will have a great return benefit. As this would likely fall under State DOT jurisdiction, I'd start by going to Olympia. (Am certain King County has ideas as well. Kittitas County seems to be a progressive group.....) See what has been done in the past. Studies, proposals, anything on file. How current? Who supported this in the past? Talk to them first. Revise, update. Which should not be a lengthy process. Don't study it to death. Boxcab E50
If Snoq. Pass could be re-opened, what would the additional capacity be reached at? 30-40 trains per day? More? With hi-wide traffic, this is quite lucrative, and lower graded mains allow cheaper transit... Just another possible routing option for BNSF's hottest traffic... The curves slow trains, as do grades, but the capacity has got to be tempting to BNSF.
