I know this question belongs on a Nickel Plate forum, but we don't have one. Reading Kevin Holland's book on Nickel Plate Berkshires, there is a chapter on Wheeling and Lake Erie Berks, and it says they did not have a feedwater heater. Can't find a feedwater pump on one anywhere in any pictures. I do see two "inverted funnels," both on the fireman's side, one ahead and one behind the trailing truck. Those funnels were usually part of injectors. I assume (should never do that) that they had two injectors. Do you know? I feel comfortable putting the question here since the NYC and NKP were in sight of each other on a lot of right of way. Second question--The NYC Niagaras had such clean lines. Someone told me that the air tanks were somewhere in the engine frame. Where were the air horn and whistle mounted? They are not visible in any photos I have seen. Thanks.
Well, this is embarrassing. Asked the airhorn question on another site and a guy referred me to my own site, photo of 6017 which clearly shows the horn just forward of the cab, engineer's side, right by the handrail. I have other shots where no horn is visible. Was it an add-on?
the WLE Berks had Elesco exhaust steam injectors.Remember the article on feedwater heaters,that exhaust steam injectors were the same as a feedwater heater.The two funnels, I think the front one is from the engineers side on his injector and the one at the rear is for the firemans injector. Yes the Main Reservoirs were between the side fames.Other 4-8-4s also had this feature,UP,ACL,MILW,and the D&H. The air horn was probably like the sand traps.they were hidden some where in front and were hard to maintain.They were moved to the boiler position for ease of mainte- nance.Also snow could have been another reason,it gets in the horn and plugs it up. LEW
LEW, thanks again! You are a regular encyclopedia of information. I have to think of some more puzzling questions (for me) to ask of you.
Lew, I have thought of another. Can you tell us the difference between Duplex and BK stokers? I think I know part of the answer, the Duplex was the one with two feeds coming up either side of the firebox door, correct? Thanks.
We will start wih the Duplex.The Duplex had two elevator barrels coming through the cab floor at an angle on each side of the firebox door against the backhead of the boiler.They were fed by a conveyer screw from the tender to the elevators.At the upper end of the barrels about 1/3 of the way from the top were openings from the barrels to the fire box.At these openings were distributing plates. Above and behind these plates were steam jets that blowed the coal into the fire box.The fireman adjusted the jet pressure by valves in the steam line to the jets.Yo adjusted the pressure by starting the stoker with about 15lbs.of jet pressure and observe where the coal was going in the fire box.After the fireman was satisfied he would note the pressure on both jets and close the main valve to the jets.The pressure gauge for the jets was a duplex gauge and recorded both pressures on one gauge These barrels operated on a ratchet and paw system some what like a reel type push lawn mower.They would make a half turn ratchet back and make another half turn.If you wanted to reverse one of the barrels if some- thing lodged in the elevator you lifted the top up as far as it would go and the ratchet and paw was reversed and the elevator reversed direction.If you did not want the elevator to turn you lifted the top up halfway and it would not turn.We would use the 3/4 in.hose used to clean the cab and water the coal to keep the dust down under the stoker top when we did not want that barrel to operate. There was another steam gauge next to the jet gauge that recorded the pressure to the stoker engine.These stokers fired lite in the rear(that's the end where the fire box door is located)so the fire man usually built a small heel or ridge of coal along the rear of the fire box.This type of stoker was not the best but they got the job done. When I started some H-10s and all of the H-6 locomotives had the Duplex stokers. The BK stokers were screw fed from tender to the fire box.About two ft. from the fire box the conveyer came through the cab floor angling up to the fire box door opening The fire box doors(butterfly)closed on top of the stoker where it entered the fire box. On these stokers was a dis tributing plate about two ft. wide extending into the fire box about 10 in. just below where the coal was discharged from the stoker into the fire box. The dist. plate had two curved ribs on each rear corner to direct the coal to the corners.Just above the dist. plate was was 11 jets.Two for each rear corner and the rest covering the sides,front and center of the fire box.One row of jets across was for fine coal and the others for heavier bigger coal.As the coal came through the screw it came out in lumps around 1 1/2 -2ins. in size. At the fireman's position were five jet valves and a main valve arranged like an arrow pointed down.Across the top,l-r, left rear,main and right rear. Next l-r, l side,lfront and center,r side,rfront and center. At the point was the fine coal.This covered the entire fire box.To start you closed all of the jets except the fine coal.Then you started the stoker and adjusted the fine coal to not quite reach the front of the fire box.Then both side and front jets,also not quite reaching the front.Then both rear jets.You would have to fine tune the jets when the engineer started working the engine pulling the train.This was a much better stoker because you had more control over the placement of the coal.You could roll a heel in the back by simply closing the jets and running the stoker until you had the size heel you wanted.Standard also made a model HT stoker that was a later model that I think was a much better stoker.You could do anything with the HT that you could do with a shovel as concerning placement of coal LEW
LEW, wow! and thanks again. That is the most technical and operational information I have ever seen, anywhere, on stokers. I have seen old photos of NYC cabs with the duplex which seemed pretty obvious from the two "barrels." I assume the only way you could "tune" each jet was to keep the fire doors open to watch?
The initial jet setting was done on the ready track. It did not take any real time and was a starting point.Sometimes you hit it right the first time.The harder the engine was worked usually pulled the coal forward and this was what you looking for when you fine tuned.the coal might be covering just right or you might have to reduce the total jet pressure a little.If you wanted to get a good look at the fire you opened the fire door and held it open with the pedal and if you wanted to look at the left side you placed the blade of the shovel vertical on the right side of the door causing draft to pull the fire away from the left side of the fire box. This gave you a perfect view of the condition of the fire on that side and by placing the shovel on the other side you had a quick view of the entire fire box. On the Duplex the fireman had to shovel in the heel and maintain it at different times during the trip. LEW
A little more on stokers.the Central also used the Hanna stoker of which there were two types,the S-f and the H-4.The Hanna differed from the Standard BK and HTin that it had only two jet valves,a sheet blast for fine coal and nozzles for larger coal.The delivery from the tender to fire door was by a screw in a conveyor.On the S-f there was a side screw on each side at the fire door to give an even distibution of coal at the distributor plate.I only know of one engine in our area with this type of stoker.It was an L-2 4-8-2 2706 and was the fireman's friend. This engine had a good water pump and was an easy steamer. When the engineer had the engine running on almost level track and on the Mich. Br.it was still up and down,you could set the pump and stoker with the steam pressure about 5# under the pops and it would go 3 or 4 miles dropping 5# of steam up grade and pick it up going down On the H-4 stoker you did not have the side screws.On both models you controlled the amount of coal to the corners gates or slides The fireman could adjust these gates to any amount for the condition at hand.If the fire was light in the middle you could lift both gates throwing the coal to the middle.If light under the dist. plate cut way back on the fine coal.The two hands on the Duplex gauge were black for fine coal or low pressure and red for larger coal or high pressure.Wet coal changed the pressure needed more on these stokers than the Standard.Some of the H-10's had these stokers and did good job.One day I was having a little trouble with the fire and the enginer said that he reversed the jet pressure when he was firing this stoker.Normally the red hand was ahead.This was because the fine coal the black hand would have 10# and the red hand would have 15#.I reversed the pressures and always had a good fire with these engines. I know I'm running on forever but one more thing.When we were on the B&O between N Vernon,In. and Jeffersonvile,In. they would run these H-10's as fast as they would go, and this was 68-70mph.From about 62mph on up they would get what I called the pop corn shuffle.At these speeds the engine was getting out of balance and would start to suffle like a pop corn popper on a stove. When they started this you shut the jet pressure off and rolled the coal in as if you were firing under normal conditions. The shuffle would move the coal from the rear to the front of the fire box as if you were using the jets.When you arrived at the house your fire was about 5 in. deep and flat as a floor a perfect fire. LEW coal jet
LEW, there's no way you could say too much about those subjects. Great information and sad that those days are gone forever. Yesterday I chased the SP 4-8-4 4449, which is an oil burner. It has 5 or more valves on the fireman's side that I guess send an atomized spray of oil into different sectors of the firebox, much like the coal stokers fed different sectors.
Fitz The air horns were add ons. They weren't built with them. The whistle was laying down near the stack on the fireman's side (left). The bell was mounted under the pilot,on the right side.
Hudsonutt,glad you could clear up the horn and bell.Do you have any idea when they applied the horn? Can remember hearing these engines whistle but with the air horn on the side of the boiler the sound could be deadened.Did they keep both whistle and horn? LEW
Thanks Ron. I assume from the whistle location that you have found the sought after photo of the top of the Niagara.
"Central Headlight" First Quarter 1989,says that 5500 was the first to have the horn on 3/5/47 and that "it is probable that all"...had them within a short time after that. Any photos that I have looked at since this came up that were taken after 1947 show the horns.
Fitz,yes I found some shots of the stack area. I had seen that side before but couldn't find the right side. Oh,one more thing,about the bell. Seems some of the Niagara's had them placed on the right side above the valve gear hanger in later years.
I was forced assigned as an engineer to the Goshen switch run in the early 60's.As our division was a young division,meaning the engineers were from 30-50 yrs.old,I worked with older by 10 yrs.mainline NYC firemen and they would tell about firing the 6000's.East bound from Elk to Goshen is slightly up grade and 10 mile between.They said with any passenger train if you were not running 80 mph. through Goshen some- thing was wrong with the engine. Coming west;about 10 east of Goshen it started down grade slightly at Millersburg all the way to Elk.These engines steamed so easy and just more or less drifted the 20 miles that you had to watch the fire or it would almost be out at Elk.and the steam pressure would still be against the pops.Hudsonut1 I notice the word michigan in your profile would you be interested in a photo of the Niles Michigan depot LEW
Sure,always looking for photos of anything Michigan, on the Central. There has been some discussion regarding the use / lack of 6000's on the MC. It has been stated that they didn't run between Chicago and Detroit because of the clearences in Detroit. There were only certain tracks in the terminal area that they could run on. Do you know if they ran to Jackson at all? I am from the Detroit area (Wayne).The only 6000's I saw were at Toledo. Thanks,Ron
No I don't have an answer.When we were working steam we ran from Benton Harbor-Niles-South Bend and return.At the time of night we were at Niles yard it was frieght running time.After diesels and they shut down Niles our terminal was changed to Niles and when I was forced as- signed to Niles I don't remember any of the engine crews talking about the 6000s.The crews on the west end worked Niles-Chicago and return.On the east end Jackson-Niles-Detroit deadhead back to Jackson.The next trip they would reverse and I think one crew ran Jackson -Niles and return.Of course the 16 hr. law was still in.If the crews worked this schedule with steam I don't know.If they had restrictions I don't imagine they used the 6000 because of the hassle of changing power at Jackson except in an emergency on an east bound from Chicago. e-mail your address to my personal e-mail and I will send the photo by snail mail.The photo is about 4 yrs. old. LEW
