Earlier today, it occurred to me that I was actually finished with the layout planning. It all started about this time last year when my bride asked about a train set to put under the Christmas Tree. As things so often happen around here, one thing led to another and the reincarnation of the "Santa Fe & Cajon Pass Railroad in N Scale" re-appeared on my computer. I built this same layout in a somewhat different configuration about 40 years ago. This time, we are going all out for a state of the art operation. That means DCC right from the start and sound as soon as the bugs are all worked. During the past year, I have been reading all about DCC and came up with a list of things that just might be needed when it comes time to install the tracks. Take a look at the attached plan, if you would be so kind and let me know if I missed anything. The sound stuff has me a bit confused at the moment. What I am looking into now is the possibility of having some kind of surround sound thing. That's one of the reasons for all the different bus's. I think it just might be possible to have the sounds play through speakers located under the layout. One in the LA Industrial area, two under the yards, and another under the Cajon Pass. No sound in the tunnels or the staging area. Just sound coming from where you would expect to see and hear the trains running. Jerry
Gerald, I'm not familiar with the DCC Specialties products, but your plan appears very sound. While we are both using Digitrax for the system, in my case, I'm using the rest of their line of products in my plan. The things you don't mention, and I'm not sure if you are planning to incorporate this, but I don't see any mention of block detection or signaling. I also went through your railimages album, and I can tell you love the planning and engineering of this layout as much as the layout. I'm a mechanical engineer by profession, and I too love the drafting, planning, and general engineering too. What CAD software did you use?
Hi Chris, I hope to use the transponding feature of Digitrax to report where the Engine is located. Do I need to install any special circuits now in anticipation of block detection? I plan on dividing the layout into physical segments early on in anticipation of having surround sound. The software is by Autodesk. It's their Mechanical desktop with the Inventor. Being somewhat of a dufus, I usually work out all of the details in Autocad, and then pass selected profiles to the Inventor for solids modeling and rendering. Most days the process goes quite smoothly, but at times it is quite exasperating. Jerry
Gerald: Have fun planning your layout with DCC and sound. You can utilize sound in N scale if you plan your layout properly and make a decision on what DCC equipment you choose to use. Stay cool and run steam.....
Good evening Bob, In about 4 weeks, I will begin the process of building all of the turnouts. The layout needs 95 turnouts in all, with about 300 LF of flex track. I will be busy most of this spring making those. The winter project is to assemble the structures I purchased last fall. I hate to impose on you, but could you shed a bit of light on what is required for sound. I don't think that there is sufficient room in the N scale engines for a speaker large enough to move the volume of air necessary for faithful reproduction of train sounds. I was thinking more along the lines of 4 to 6 " speakers strategically placed with a control to fade the sound from one speaker to the next as the engine moves down the track. How did you do yours? Jerry
Jerry: You can use strategically placed speakers under your layout to accomplish what you want to do. I've done that with the JJJ&E. Pete Nolan visited the JJJ&E last February and was impressed with the sound system I'm using. You can do a search on TB in the DCC forum for my postings regarding sound under the layout. Take care.. It's been nice chatting with you. Stay cool and run steam.....
Jerry, I'm going to use the Digitrax BDL168 boards for block detection. You basically have to gap one of the rails (in my case the B rail or Black buss, which is the color of the wiring I'm using). The output of a circuit breaker feeds the BDL. The BDL then divides that up into 16 detection sections. I'm using a turnout as a detected block, and the section of track before and after it (both normal and diverging routes) as detection sections. In the case of a crossover, I'm using each side of the double track turnout as a block. I just make sure I have a feeder for every block that is isolatable for connection to the BDL board. You either have to plan to cut the gaps later, or install insulated joiners between each detection section. The goal for me for all of this is to be able to run a modern CTC board from a computer hooked up to my LocoNet.
Chris, When the transponder emits a signal, I suspect several things happen. The equipment ID is transmitted, The direction of travel is transmitted (or computed from last know position) The velocity of the engine is reported (or Inferred from the motor revolution rate) The BDL contributes some information necessary to identify the track segment. With that kind of information, all kinds of things are possible. Can you tell me the path the information takes to get to the computer? I suspect it will travel over the communication bus. If it does, I will have to arrange the wire connections so that they can be easily disconnected and rearranged to suit the needs of the moment. I am going to do some research on this tomorrow. Ill let you know what I come up with. Jerry
Jerry, My understanding is that BDL168 board (or pretty much any block detection board) only detects the presence of something in that block. Be that a locomotive, or a car with a resistor across the wheels (such as a caboose, or any other car). By itself, the BDL doesn't give you what exactly is in that block. That's where a second piece of electronics comes in, namely the RX4. The RX4 is a current detector and the output of a detected block wire (track feeder) is physically routed through the hole in the RX4. The RX4 is in turn connected to the BDL168. This then give you transponding. Any decoder that has this feature builit in, will then report back through the communications bus (LocoNet in Digitrax's case) what ID is present in that block. You could also equip a caboose with a transponder only decoder if you wanted. As far as speed, direction, etc, I'm not sure how or if that can be accomplished. I don't have transponding implemented yet. I would imagine, once you knew the decoder ID, you could request the other information and process it on a computer. The computer side of this system is accomplished using what's called a LocoBuffer USB, made by RRCircuits. This provides the electronics link between the computer and the Digitrax system. You then use a program such as JMRI's DecoderPro and PanelPro to control the layout. But basically, the BDL boards are simply daisy chained on the communications bus. It works a lot like ethernet. The order of the components (such as the UR91, UP5) is not important, it's that they be connected together. So you run a LocoNet bus around the layout as well. (I use 6 conductor flat telephone cable with RJ12 plugs on the ends) The JMRI software is free, and works with many DCC systems. How exactly you connect your computer to a different system such as Lenz or NCE, I'm not sure, but there are others here who can help with that.
Chris, Thanks for taking the time to point me in the right direction. I suspected that Loco net was some kind of variation of Ethernet. Somewhere around here I have a box of RJ12 male connectors. When the time comes, I will just make up the cables to the length needed. Later this week I will spend some time digging deeper into how this all works. Jerry
A local fella I know is working on sound in N scale. He is putting decoders/speakers in the locos and a duplicate decoder (same DCC address) with larger speakers under the layout. He is going to play with blocking the high and mid range from the speakers under the layout so that it just adds bass and mid-bass that can't come from the tiny speakers in the locos. Bass is omnidirectional so it should blend pretty good to make it seen the sound is running with the loco (which it is), but also full rich as well. Of course that method doubles the price. I waiting for him to get it finished and tweaked to see, or rather hear how well it works. :thumbs_up: Good Luck!
Chris, Bob, Kozmo; I spent some time today searching for a suitable sound system. The closest I came to what I want was the one that Bob (Powersteamguy1790) has installed on th JJJ&E. During the search I found references to a system by Soundtraxx that is exactly what I initially set out to do. The system is called "SurroundTraxx" and is supposed to work with up to six speakers. The above Block Diagram is linked from Tony's Train Exchange and is Dated July 23, 2002 The Block Diagram looks simple enough. 6 detectors, a sound processing station and some speakers. The only trouble with the system is that it is not yet available. Until SurroundTraxx is available, I will simply install a single speaker in the same manner Bob did and be satisfied with something rather than nothing. Thanks for your help guys! Jerry
I use Soundtraxx DSX sound only decoders for sound in N scale. They used to be $139 and Tonys has them on sale for $66. They are decoders for many diesel and steam loco's. There are four wires to use for this installation. First you must program the decoder. Hook up the red and black wires to your programing track and the two purple wires temporarily to a Radio Shack 4 inch speaker.($9.99) You then program the decoder as you would a loco as the decoder will respond to changes in the throttle. You only need one DSX decoder per consist. You then give the decoder a number. I started with 01, skipped 03 as 03 is the default value for all decoders. Right now I'm up to # 26. After the decoder is programmed, you can check it, by trying to blow the horn or bell. If that is successful, now hook the red and balck wires to your bus lines. Then mount the four inch speaker under the layout. You'll tape the decoder right next to the speaker. The two purple wires will then be soldered to the speaker connections. Before you do that, you'll solder a capacitor in series to one purple wire and then attach to the speaker. The second purple wire can be soldered directly to the second speaker connection. Now you're ready to program the DSX sound decoder completely.There are instructions that come with the decoder or you can download either/both steam and diesel manuals on line at Soundtraxx. There is also an addendum manual for additional programing CV's for diesels. When you buy the decoder ask your supplier to send you the three manuals. Right now I have 25 DSX sound only decoders corresponding to the different types of steam and diesel power I have on the JJJ&E. There are sound bytes of the individual decoders on Tony Trains website. After the decoder is programmed, You then program the sound decoder in a consist with say three FT's. In the consist you'll have 01(decoder), 907, 904 and 913(the three diesels) The light functions of the diesels can be controlled by calling up their individual addresses. The functions of the decoder, horn, bell, uncoupling etc will work with functions keys when you call up the decoder number in this case #01.After the loco's lights are on, I usually control the consist by calling up #01(decoder). The decoder now responds like a fourth loco in the consist responding to all changes in the throttle. It's really very easy. Have fun. Stay cool and run steam....
Which SoundTraxx Decoder is appropriate Good morning everyone, Yesterday Bob the power steam guy spent a lot of his time explaining to me how he installed and configures his under the table sound system. Bob thanks for the help. One thing we could not decide on was what horn should be played on each locomotive. Bob suggested that I do some research on the prototype. I did a lot of research on this subject yesterday and drew a blank. But I did get to hear a lot of horn sounds. I also know who made them and how to repair one if that should ever be needed!:angel: The decoders I purchase will be used on the these engines, EMD SW-1200, EMD GP-35, EMD GP-60, EMD F7. Here is a list of decoders available from SoundTraxx. Which ones are appropriate for each of the above listed locomotives. 825201 EMD 1st Gen Wabco Airhorn 825202 EMD 1st Gen 3-Chime Leslie 825203 EMD 1st Gen Nathan Airhorn 825204 EMD 1st Gen Wabco E2 1-Chime 825205 EMD 1st Gen Nath M5 5-Chime 825208 EMD 1st Gen Nath P3 825211 ALCO Wabco 3-Chime Airhorn 825212 ALCO Leslie 3-Chime Airhorn 825213 ALCO w/Nathan 3-Chime 825214 ALCO w/Wabco E2 1-Chime 825215 ALCO w/Nathan M5 5-Chime 825218 ALCO w/Nathan P3 825220 EMD, 2nd Gen Leslie S5T 5-chime 825222 EMD, 2nd Gen Leslie S3 3-chime 825223 EMD, 2nd Gen Nathan K3LA 3-chime 825226 EMD, 2nd Gen Nathan K5LA 5-chime 825227 EMD, 2nd Gen Nathan M3 3-chime 825228 EMD 2nd Gen, Nathan P3 3-chime 825230 GE Leslie S5 5-chime 825231 GE Wabco 1-chime 825232 GE Leslie S3 3-chime 825234 GE Wabco E2 825236 GE Nathan K5 5-chime 825238 GE Nathan P3 3-chime (new) 825241 Fairbanks-Morse with Wabco 825242 Fairbanks-Morse with Leslie S3 825244 Fairbanks-Morse with Wabco E2 825245 Fairbanks-Morse with Nathan M5 825246 Fairbanks-Morse with Nathan K5 825247 Fairbanks-Morse with Nathan M3 825250 "Goose" Rail Bus Thanks Jerry
Jerry: Your loco's were made by EMD. I would assume the EMD GP-60 is a second generation EMD diesel. and the rest are first generation diesels. But I could be mistaken. Then you must choose between the individual sounds. Stay cool and run steam.....
Thanks Harold. Steam is my forte. Diesels beyond the transition era isn't a strong suit. Stay cool and run steam....
I found my Airhorns! Bob, In the era when railroads were beginning to transition between Steam and Diesel Electric one company dominated the scene of producing "Horns" for trains. Timeline 1934 - Leslie starts marketing its Tyfon series of air horns for railroad use 1950 - Chime-tone horns are introduced, giving Leslie the ability to market chime air horns. 1951 - Leslie SuperTyfon series is introduced with the S-5A, S-5D, S-3E, and S-3J. Chime-tone horns are dropped from the offerings. 1952 - SuperTyfon models S-5A, S-5D, S-3E, and S-3J are dropped in favor of the S-5T and S-3L, which have remained mainstays ever since. 1955 - The 25 and 31 bells are cast as one piece, eliminating the old style of two-piece castings with the bells welded together half-way up the throat. 1958 - Bronze power chamber construction was abandoned in favor of aluminum construction. 1968 - Tab-back power chambers dropped in favor of dome-back power chambers. Leslie company moves to Parsippany, NJ. 1979 - Dome-back power chambers dropped in favor of the newer, RS-style, spike-backed power chambers. 1986 - Leslie company moves to Tampa, FL. To make a long story very short, the Leslie Controls Co. Made most of them. Until about 1960, most new locomotives came equipped with an A-200 model single chime horn. This is the horn that is modeled by all of the Manufacturers of N Scale equipment including the E & F series EDM locomotives. It looks like they are prototypically correct! Although not exact, the SoundTraxx 825204 EMD 1st Generation with WABCO E2 single chime Airhorn comes close to duplicating the sound of the A-200 That's the one I will use for the first generation stuff. Note: WABCO = Westinghouse Air Brake Company BY 1960, a plethora of horns were available to the railroads. Almost all were installed on various roads at one time of another. In recent years, the favorites seem to be in the multi Chime horns. I suspect that the Feds had something to do with that. I will be using the SoundTraxx 825226 EMD 2nd Generation with Nathan K5 5-chime Airhorn for all my equipment except for the SW-1200 switch engines. Reason: It just sounds so darn good!:teeth: Thanks everyone for the help in running this small detail down. Now when you come over to our house for an Operating session the trains will sound correct! Jerry
Jerry stated "I will be using the SoundTraxx 825226 EMD 2nd Generation with Nathan K5 5-chime Airhorn for all my equipment except for the SW-1200 switch engines." Reason: It just sounds so darn good!:teeth: Jerry: I also use that decoder 825226 for the same reason. I like the sounds of the Nathan K5 5 chime airhorn. I didn't want to influence your choice, so I didn't say anything about what I use. When you buy the Soundtraxx DSX sound only decoders, make sure your supplier sends the Decoder manual for diesels as well as the Addendum manual for diesels which discusses CV 's not found in the original manual. Stay cool and run steam....
Jerry, Go to Layout Sounds Yahoo Groups. I think you will find answers to your sound questions. There are some very helpfull, knolagable, and likeable people over there. I think a CD player sound tracks and a Dream Player will do the deed. See you there.
