New Model Railroader

Hello all, I am retiring from motorcycle road racing and jumping whole hog into model railroading and RC jets. Too old to take another multiple-trauma on the track and my geekish side can now flourish. I have a 4x8 that I'm learning on with an Ecos and a growing stable of rolling stock. Looks like I'll be moving from expensive California to perhaps Ohio and expect to buy a house with lots of room for model railroading. I have taken a stab at the attached and am sure there are many absurd elements given I only know a minimal amount about prototypical railroading and model railroading, despite much reading and some experimentation. I seem stuck on wanting the following for a large scale layout (and very much welcome comment and critique on my first plan), not all of which might be prototypical in combination:

1. some ability to have long sweeping mainline MU runs with one elevation shift to about 3" on the mainline (at the upper right spur in the plan; 5" high on the spur end to the far right which could give optionality to a new section);
2. a location that is centered around interface or at least reasonable reality in using as many railroads as possible with priority on BNSF and NS;
3. operational challenges;
4. period of perhaps late 80s/early 90s (with an exhibition steam locomotive or two);
5. a roundhouse to feature at least a portion of a large fleet of locomotives; and
6. and signaling detail.

I guess the roundhouse is pretty out of place? I started placing signals but gave up as it's currently overwhelming (I've begun procuring some searchlight signal components which I believe will be applicable however this plays out). View attachment 174905 Thank you all for any views you might share.

 

I look forward to posting true physical progress as well! It will take some time though, given I need the right house. Now is the idea formation stage. Actual space will obviously dictate the layout but this is an objective and a start. The configuration could very well have to be modified but I do want long mainline runs for the aesthetics of those long trains. I don't see cluttering with detail around towns, farms, and such. Yard detail will likely be there, though. Not meant to be a mountain setting either.

Something like this is not inexpensive but given I've accumulated over the last couple of years over 125 locomotives, many with factory or vendor sound installed and many more with decoders that I need to learn how to install (I have LokSound Select Micros and V4.0s with a LokProgrammer, as well as various Tsunami and Zimos) and over 600 rolling stock, that part is pretty well taken care of.

On the layout, other than flat out busts on the design I'm probably most concerned with the depth of 4 feet, which I know makes reaching to the back difficult. I tried to minimize activity back there. Is it a silly idea even so? I am also still learning about prototypical signaling (doubtful I'll be able to represent an actual railroad's signaling but something fairly realistic for, likely, BNSF is a goal). And I'm still pretty foggy on signal wiring and control for the mains and yards, but learning.

Thanks

 

Welcome aboard, Lynn. As one of the resident "steam nuts" who actually does not model, with a nice roundhouse like that in your plans, you almost have to consider a large quantity of steam locomotives!

 

Wish I had that yard on my layout.

Love the roundhouse. A great idea.

Oh, and welcome. Good to have you on board.

 

One hell of a layout. N scale, I presume.

Be sure to fully isolate the double-slip switch adjacent to the tower (or is that a crossing?) and probably the first foot of track leading off of it in all four directions, and wire it so you can reverse the polarity of it. But you knew that already, didn't you?

 

Ha! Yes I am educating myself on wiring for DCC and sort of welcome its complexity (to me, anyway). Advance planning is obviously critical for access, maintenance, and solid operations. I am pretty clear on the way I'd like to set up the benchwork and access. There are so many great resources available for ideas, tips, and warnings. Signaling and model signal wiring are things on which I might seek expert advice when this begins to take more shape. I'm thinking infrared occupancy detection on the main and spurs. The yard seems overwhelming so basic switch indication position lights seem realistic enough to me (I don't want to try to model any single railroad's conventions) and, although tedious for sure, reasonable doable. Yes, N-scale. Thanks, Lynn

 

BTW, having no real-life railroad experience or even any real model railroading experience makes designing a layout for challenging but somewhat realistic operations a bit more difficult. I guess that, despite a lot of reading, I often don't even know what I don't know. Over time I can see great benefit in spending time with a club to better understand what I'm doing right and wrong on this design and its implementation. I just don't want to go too far in my current location only to be moving.

Thanks!

 

Well, it's a great design, with all sorts of operational possibilities. But it will certainly also be challenging.

That string of double-slips through the yard are particularly impressive. Each will need a pair of switch machines, of course. I'd be interested to see how you arrange the controls for them so they are, hopefully, as intuitive as possible.

I only have one in my layout, which sits in the middle one of three parallel through tracks. The double slip has no control toggle on the panel at all. I wired the appropriate motors in with the motors of the crossover switches on each side, so they operate simultaneously. If I align the switches on both adjacent tracks to operate straight through, then the double slip is aligned to allow trains to operate through on that track as well. If I align both of the adjacent tracks to cross over to the double slip, then the double slip is aligned so trains cut across the center track. That simplifies the control panel, and is nice and intuitive.

You could do the same thing. You could wire pairs of machines together and put your toggles on the control panels between them. Each toggle could control a crossover--with the toggle in one position, the double slips on each side are aligned to cross trains from the one double slip to the other, and in the other position they don't. That would cut the number of toggles controlling that stretch in half, and help make operation intuitive.

Am I making sense?

 

I think so. Some compromise in that each of the two diagonal strings of double slipswitches wired in unison to allow either (i) straight through to the mainline or (ii) all closed on the diagonal through-track and open to just the parallel yard tracks (i.e., no one slipswitch could be operated individually)? I had thought that may a necessary compromise like that is not crazy since if a long string of cars on one of the parallel yard tracks were crossing the diagonal string, a train could not traverse diagonally, anyway. Am I understanding correctly or missing your point? Lynn

 

Oh wait, now I see your point! Sorry and , yes, makes sense and less of a compromise than my thinking. My thinking would be too constraining and not allow easy movement from one parallel yard track to another. Thanks!

 

There are two things to worry about in regards to moving. One is whether the layout is too big to move, the other is whether you'll find a new home that has a space the right size and shape for your layout. Either way, the answer is modular design. Making sure the sections aren't to big to move is relatively simple--instead of making one big train table, you make several smaller ones that can be locked together. You can get electrical multiconnectors such as the ones used in automobiles, and run all the wiring that goes from one table to another through them. When it comes time to move, you disconnect the multiconnectors and the latches that physically hold the tables together, and move the several modules. In the new place, you put the tables side-by-side, get all the tracks reconnected with each other, latch the tables together and reconnect the multiconnectors.

Modules used in club layouts are designed so each track is just so far from the edge of the module, and each track is spaced just so far from the one next to it, and that is standardized. With that system, a club could move from a long, narrow building to a more square building, and by rearranging the modules convert from a long oval layout to a wider, shorter, more square layout. My layout is pretty well fixed so far as the way the sections can be latched together, but it is sectional, and has survived relocations.

 

Yes, Ohio has more house for the money than California so I am hoping a good space won't be a problem but I plan to retire in maybe ten years and would likely move again so modular is definitely part of the plan. At least for the benchwork and wiring. I may cover the modules with quilt batting to approximate fields on the open areas but I think if a move were happening I could cut along the module edges and deal with seam repairs in a new location. Also thinking that while panels with wiring should be transportable components, it would also be best to be able to detach legwork from the panels themselves. Somewhat related, I think a "plains setting" (or at the bottom of an alluvial fan even) simplifies a lot of design/maintenance issues.

 

Exactly. One set of points are wired together with one set of points on the next double slip west, and the other set of points are wired together with one set of points on the next double slip east.

Each double slip has two sets of points. Looking at your diagram above, and assuming up is north (whether it is or not, I don't know, but let's assume), then each double slip has one set of points which decides if a train coming from the west or southwest will go northeast or straight east. It doesn't matter to that set of points if the train is coming from the west or the southwest. Either way, if you set it one way, the train will go onto the yard track going straight east, and if you set it the other way, a train from either the west or the southwest will go northeast. The other set of points will either direct a train coming from the east or the northeast due west, down the yard track, or will direct it to the southwest. One set of points has to be aligned the right way or the train will go the wrong direction. These are the 'facing points'; they are the first points the train comes to, and the train comes to the sharp ends of those points first. Then the train goes across to the 'trailing points', and they have to be set correctly or the train will derail.

If you have a double-slip and a loose truck handy, this is easier to see. You can roll the truck across and see how it works. A simple switch only has two points instead of eight. Those points are 'facing points' if the train is going one way, and 'trailing points' if the train is going the other way. If the switch is acting like a highway exit, giving the train two options as far as directions it can go, then the switch is a facing point switch for that train. If the switch is acting like a highway on-ramp, allowing another train going the same direction to come up beside it and try to merge with it (good luck with that!) then that is a trailing point switch.

Now suppose a train is coming into your yard from the southwest corner and going northeast. The trick is to wire the facing points of the first switch it comes to together with the trailing points of the next switch to the northeast. The first switch is not a double-slip switch, it's a normal switch on the inside main line track which is a reddish-brown color on your diagram and is attached to the double crossover. You wire that switch together with the trailing points on the first double-slip. You wire the facing points on the first double-slip with the trailing points on the second double-slip. You wire the facing points on the second double-slip with the trailing points on the third double-slip, and right down the line.

Now suppose all the double-slips are arranged to direct a train all the way from the outside of the yard to the inside, or vice versa. A train coming from the northeast will go southwest, and a train from the southwest will go northeast. With this system, you flip one switch--say, the one between the first yard track and the second--and one side of the first double-slip and the opposite side of the second double-slip flip over to the other position. Now a train coming from the southwest will come to the first yard track and the first yard track is where it will go. A train coming from the northeast will go southwest until it gets to the second yard track, and then it will enter the second yard track. No train will crossover from the first yard track to the second, and no train will derail because the trailing points are set the wrong way.

With this system, no train will ever derail while crossing over from one track to another because the trailing points are set the wrong way. You put a little extra, unnecessary miles on switch machines with this system sometimes, but you have half as many toggles on the control panel and the trailing points are always lined up right for trains crossing over.

Each toggle on the control panel controls a crossover. Either you set it to cross over between those two tracks or not. Align all those toggles to cross over, and the train can go from the inside edge of the yard out to the main line. Align them all to not cross over, and your switch engine can go straight from the east ladder to the very end of any and every yard track. The thing you must keep in mind is this--if the switcher is coming west toward a double slip along a yard track, you must set that switch not to cross over to the next track to the north. Otherwise, it will derail on the trailing points. You can set it to cross over to the next track to the south, or not, and be fine either way. But the switch must be set to not cross over to the next track to the north, because a westbound switcher can't do that (the corner is way too sharp, right?). Likewise, when an eastbound switcher coming out of the short end of a yard track toward a double slip, that must be set to not cross over to the next track south.

I think that's by far the simplest, most intuitive way to arrange the controls of double-slip switches. With that system, the most daunting thing about a string of seven double-slips is paying for them!

As for undulating ground, there are things to be said for styrofoam. It's easy to sand (maybe too easy--be careful not to get carried away), it butts together tightly at the edges of modules, it holds wood glue fairly well so the ground cover is fairly seamless, and it dampens the tendency of plywood to act as a sound board and amplify the clickety-clack.

 

Okay, now I really do get the concept of leapfrogging the points alignment of (facing-to-next-trailing) to avoid derailment and simplify wiring/toggles. This I will save in my layout technical files, thanks very much!

 

My pleasure! I wire all my crossovers that way, whether double-slips are involved or not. Please post updates--I'm sure I'm not the only one who would enjoy watching this one come to life!

 

Sorry to be the odd man out here, but being you are a newbie to MRRing, and hoping you haven't begun to construct this design yet, I think you should do some reading aimed at 'how to build a model railroad' and 'model railroad benchwork construction' type books. What I say here is not to criticise you but to keep you from making huge mistakes. And I'm seeing one large one right now...What you have here is a gargantuan yard and engine terminal packed into an oval not much larger than the real estate for them .. I believe you need to thin out and simplify the entire plan. Yes we all love turntables and we all love huge yards filled with our favorite rolling stock, with our prize engines pulling and pushing them all. You have a, what, 18 stall (!!) roundhouse. Do you plan to have 12--16 locomotives filling it ? If so, where are these engines going to be pulling cars to/from along the route you have around it, which is possibly no more than 2 scale miles.. It looks like you have but one industry spur (on right). Beware that you will have to travel counterclockwise on the main in order to service this spur. Otherwise engine will be trapped behind cars it's delivering here. If you make up a 4 or 5 car train to roll on the main, it'd look OK I suppose. But if you wish to run 30 to 50 car trains you will wind up with engine chasing its own caboose.. Next: If you are putting all this on a flat (4x8) board you'll need to have this board standing free. Because if you have a derailment or stall out on the back main (top of drawing), you're going to bust a blood vessel attempting to reach across 4 feet to correct it every time.
I could take up whole pages walking you through the whole gamut of this hobby. Instead, I'll close by again suggesting MRRing books, picking up the latest "Trains" and/or "Model Railroader" Mags. And of course all the 'how to' posts right in Tboard. Take yourself on a simple journey on how the 1:1 scale RRs do it (especially the small branch lines, short lines and belt lines). A single track main line seems, to the eye, longer than a double track main. You need to devise a way to obtain a longer run for your trains, and perhaps a much smaller yard/engine house/terminal. If you'd rather stay with what you have now, fine. But eventually you're likely to grow weary of the short trips around the huge facilities within it...
I just said this in another, quite similar thread to this. I'm the tough love guy around here. If I've made you a tad angry or guilty, good. Better to heed mine and the others' advice and warnings now than to wind up with a 'spaghetti bowl' of which you've lost your appetite for.....M.

 

Yes, it is. All this is absolutely right--from one person's point of view. The railroad proposed would absolutely not suit some people at all.

On the other hand, some people are perfectly content with nothing but a switching shelf. They put trains together and take them apart for hours, and those trains never go anywhere at all. They can't even chase their own tails--and these people are content with that.

This newbie admitted to being a locomotive collector--might even qualify for the term hoarder. How could such a person ever be content with less than a massive locomotive facility? I must confess to being somewhat of the same mind. I like the ability to switch up trains and have a measure of variety better than consigning myself to the basement in search of enough space to get some mileage. I have a higher tolerance than some people for running around an oval. There's something to be said for being able to run one or two of a few dozen different trains, and being able to run any of them in either direction. If you have a beautiful train, sometimes it's a pleasure just to watch it roll. And the yard has definite possibilities for switching.

Marklin, I'm not saying you're wrong. I, for one, would add some more industries, perhaps sticking them in the right end of the big loop and turning that diagonal into double track for runaround purposes. Lynn, you should definitely think hard about what Marklin said, because he could be right.

But then, what you've proposed could also be perfect for you. If so, don't let anyone talk you out of it. Will you find you become fascinated with the idea of getting the goods from Point A to Point B in the fashion of the real roads, and serving industries long the way? Will you get frustrated at not being able to do it? Or will you be content forevermore to merely watch your fine collection of 125 locomotives roll, and be overjoyed that your spacious yard allows you to put together just the right train to suit each one and show them off to their best advantage?

The right answer for Marklin, or me, or anyone else is not necessarily the right answer for you. But it is a question, and you would certainly be wise to know the correct answer before you build.