Here's Version 3.0 of my layout plan. Versions 1.0 and 2.0 were http://www.trainboard.com/highball/...ith-86-x-19-room-to-play-in-in-n-scale.95506/ I got a lot of great feedback on those, hoping for more on this one. One of my design criteria is continuous running for a solitary operator and a computer (hopefully cooperating) which I figured meant loop to loop. Another criteria was track at different heights for bridges and track crossing over which meant long climbs between loops to gain elevation over the other track. Having track essentially always climbing, plus the loops, presented scenicking challenges that I've since decided would be solved by having unsceniced helices at both ends. One of the advantages is that it gives me more control of how much height I want between the tracks, I've settled on 6.3" (so far). Since the original design I've decided I need to share the room with a guest bed, so precludes using the west and south walls. Overall room is 19' X 8.5' (on the left), with what would have been/will be a closet on the right. Black - room outline and elements (and mainline track), Red - benchwork, green - backdrop. On the left is a 12" helix changing elevations 6.3". Staging on both levels at this end. If the 12" radius makes a difficult climb for full trains i can use it for downgrade only for trains, upgrade for just locomotives. Helix on the lower right is 18".
Darn, won't let me edit the title and I'll have to live with continuous spelled wrong... Knowing my process, I figure I better build in steps where I get each step essentially complete before going on to the next. This will involve self control as I know I'll be very tempted to build all the benchwork and track in one go... Here's the sequence I'm thinking. Each will be an interesting build, and have fun operating possibilities once the track is working.
What are your plans for operations? Through trains only? road switchers only? a mix of both? The smaller helix on the left will allow you to set up a train that makes a continuous loop around the layout, but unless you are running very short trains or are using 3 or 4 locos, you will only be able to arrive on the upper deck from one direction. A 12 inch radius helix will require about a 2.66% grade to provide enough clearance between the railhead of one loop and the underside of the next higher loop...and an even steeper grade if the helix ramp supporting your track is more than 1/4 inch thick. In addition to the reduction in loco pulling power caused by the grade, the tight radius will generate curve drag on the cars that is comparable to using an even steeper grade (well over 3%). If you only use the 12R helix to descend, then your operating options will be severely limited (any through traffic orbiting right to left on the continuous loop will arrive back on the upper deck after such a short period of time, that road switchers trying to serve industries will be spending more time parked on the siding waiting for the through trains to go by than they spend actually switching. An alternate approach might be to eliminate the smaller helix, add two or 3 loops to the 18 inch radius helix to separate the 2 decks by 10 to 15 inches, set up a 3 or 4 track satellite yard at the left end of the lower shelf, put two visible but plainly/simply sceniced staging tracks (representing a major RR yard "off" the layout but accessible for swapping out cars/locos) on the lower level (0" elevation) that are against the right wall (underneath Stirling Industries but visible to operators) both curving around the outside of the 18R helix at 0" to become a single track by the doorway before entering the more deliberately sceniced portion of the lower level. Immediately after appearing from staging, there would be a right turnout, and the diverging track would continue curving around the helix to join the "main" track coming from the satellite yard and going into the helix to climb up to the upper level. The straight portion of the turnout coming from staging would connect to continue toward the satellite yard and connect into the main going toward the satellite yard. Between the helix and satellite yard, there would be assorted industries/interchanges. On the upper level, there would be several tracks serving Stirling Industries and other industries/interchanges, but near the middle would be a junction and interchange with a main line that disappears into 1 or 2 tracks of "hidden staging" behind industries and buildings at the left end of the upper shelf. The tracks at the interchange/junction should be configured in a way that the interchange can be served by a train coming from the helix and going to hidden staging (or vice versa), and also served by a road switcher that moves cars back and forth between the interchange and industries on the upper level.
Wow, thanks for the great response, Dave, lots to think about. I forgot that responding to my "newbie" thread would bump it back up the list, was thinking it was buried, hence starting a new thread. I wonder if I should have added this to it, rather than starting anew? Operations: Combination of through and road switching. I've been presuming the switching could be done clear of the mainline, which I suppose means three tracks in each switching area, one passing siding and one siding for the switcher to operate from? Two operating session scenarios, one with 2-3 operators, but mostly single operator with a computer. I'm thinking the human would operate the switching while the computer operated the through trains. I wonder if there's any way of estimating the number of through trains to add operating interest but not too constraining as you suggested. If as I had it drawn out, there are three switching areas, Stirling, Seaforth and "6" (where I had the sixth build stage), in a 3 hour session would 1 through train work - seems to few. One every half hour? If this, then 5 trains? i.e. one at the beginning but not one at the end. 5 would be a fair commitment in loco and rolling stock to have available in staging, hence back to continuous run or complete rethinking as you suggest. I'd forgotten the increase in grade for a 12" helix, had thought of the increased friction in the curve - further constraining the left end for downgrade and continuous running in one direction only. I was thinking this could be got around by having one or two trains in staging on the upper level. I suppose if I did the same on the lower level I wouldn't need the left helix at all - leading towards your layout suggestion. I'm going to have to draw out your design suggestion! I've been resistant to the idea of a double deck, mainly I think because I'm thinking about the additional scenicing and that I really like trains crossing over with bridges. Down side of this in my drawing is making it look interesting with so much run with two tracks separated by 6" in elevation. I'll respond after I've drawn out your suggestion and subsequent pondering ;-). Cheers Scott
Dave, if I read this right the helix would be a clockwise climb, i.e. opposite to what I had? If true, I get the drift and liking the possibilities. Also if true, the two tracks entering the helix would cross over each other resulting in overlap of the two decks by a minimum of say 12"? If this is correct, I'll work up a track plan. Thanks again.
If you really want to get the feeling of really working a 1:1 scale RR, and I say this with all the deepest admiration for the other contributing members' remedies, that they're all logical and astute, perfectly doable, brainiac-level suggestions in themselves, truly (Ex.: Dave H's. above calculation facts, where I was hoping he'd bring up 'curve-drag', and did !). Too many do not know about this but many of us do know it means the extra gravity to the loco(s) v its/their tractive-effort, greater friction on the outside wheel flanges (especially, typically non-super-elevated helix curved-track) and more Lbs. pull on the couplers (first one feeling the complete pound test of the entire dragging train, and the second to the last coupler, the least !! (I keep seeing 3 N&W Y6bs; 2 on the point and one pushing, lifting a 180 car full coal 'drag' up a 2.5% curved grade/and the screeching of all the brakes downgrade, the burning /smoking neoprene brake shoes trying to hold everything back along with a hot box or two !!). Anyway, my suggestion is, scrub the 12" diam helix and have the largest Wye you can make at that end. Why? It forces the operator(s) to turn trains around prototypically, including turning passenger cars, combines, cabooses, and of course, locos, for either the engine house, interchange track on one of the legs of the wye, and one leg fading off in distance with perhaps a depot/station on that leg. Also the engine house track can connect closely to a flat stump yard of several tracks, due to industry in this same area to begin with (Why the RR either began here or arrived here from the opposite end of the line in the first place... OK, this will prevent continual running. But at the same time it gives the owner more RRing operations fun/chores /jobs..Getting all that done to make the road trip, back, switching all the trailing-point industry spurs along the way. This sounds crass.. I don't mean to sound that way. A greater percentage of MRRers prefer continuals/roundy-rounds. But for me even with the largest space and $ you could picture a layout, I personnaly still build it as a point to point RR.. I certainly wish there were MRR clubs that adopted this; the forcing of having to always to operate realistically.. Mind you, I do enjoy 'balloon tracks' around large terminals like Grand Central Sta. NYC, or, large oil facilities such as the one in EL Segundo, Ca. and belt line RRs... In conclusion, DD99, find what truly trips your trigger track planning wise, ops wise, and just dig in and do it if it feels right to you; if it's the vision you've been walking around with, coupled with the best engineering work you can give it and enjoy that however long you like......M, Los Angeles
Thanks M. Ironically, I'd thought of the drag, but not the increased grade to get clearance. Doh. The 12" is out. I'm trying to avoid, as much as possible, and being as how this'll be my one and only large layout build, what I think will turn my crank, vs. future as built regrets later... Continuous run being the most major decision... Being a baby boomer, I always look for having my cake and eating it too. I could make the bed a single leaving room for the left helix to also be 18", and also a wye and operate it as a terminal when there's more operators. One of my givens is a computer controlling through trains when a single operator, but this would still be possible with point to point with sufficient staging. Question with this is how many trains would need to be ready on staging?
Yes, helix rises clockwise in my plan. Yes, Stirling on the upper shelf in the closet would be about 24 inches deep, so it would cover most (all?) of the lower deck around the 18"R helix and in the closet area. Let's assume the lower level main is in the front half of a 12-inch deep shelf running along the east wall, and as it passes in front of the closet, it gently curves toward the back of the shelf to enter the helix at 0 inches elevation. Half a loop around the helix (at south point of the helix circle), the track will have climbed to 1 inch elevation, and at the top (northern edge) of the first (bottom) helix loop, it will be at 2 inches elevation. When the track exits the helix onto the upper level, the front of the upper shelf will be between 3 and 4 feet from the back wall of the closet, but, since the mainline, siding and industrial tracks will be at the front of the shelf instead of the back, the long reach to the back of the closet should not be an issue. Most of your plans show the upper deck elevation a little over 6 inches higher than the lower deck. If window issues allow it (see my comments below), I'd encourage you to develop a plan with more separation between decks...maybe up to 12 inches, instead of 6. When looking at your drawings today, I noticed the 3 squares with x's that might represent permanent objects (pipes, conduits, heating ducts, studs, columns) that will be in the way and will prevent access to laying, maintaining, or repairing any track that is not part of the helix. So, I've changed where the lower level staging representing a large off-layout yard will be: Instead of completely in the closet and curling around the (possibly inaccessible) outside of the helix for additional length, the tracks will start in the upper right (northeast) corner at the back of the 12-inch shelf that runs along the east wall, and will gently bend into the closet roughly parallel with the main line that comes from the satellite yard...but they will be at 2 inches elevation. About 4 feet from the center of the helix, there will be 2 switches joined base to base, so the two staging tracks from the north will combine to one track and then split again to two as they continue south. One of the tracks will bend toward the back of the closet and rise slightly to enter the northeast edge of the second loop of the helix at just over 2 inches elevation, and the other will descend slightly as it bends slightly toward the front of the shelf and enters the northwest edge of the 1st loop at just under 2 inches elevation. Depending on where you position the staging tracks and 2 switches at 2 inches elevation, and where you run the single mainline track from the satellite yard to the helix at 0 inches elevation, you could have one or two bridges. If you want to add more length to the staging tracks (or add switches for a 3rd or 4th staging track), you could bend the staging tracks around the northeast corner and continue them along the north wall at the back of the lower level shelf to the east window (and farther, if you have adequate clearance from any window cranks [again, see below]). In your original thread, there was an image showing both a floor plan and wall plan. Dimensions included a 33-inch high sill on the right window. At that time, you indicated the right window sill itself could not be used for track planning because you wanted to be able to open the window. Assuming double crank-type windows hinged on the sides, opening to the outside--not inward, and latching/locking in the middle, and further assuming window access is for opening/closing for ventilation only (and NOT for fire escape access, which would be a deal-breaker), would it be possible to have a lower shelf at about 32 or 33 inches elevation (or whatever height allowed you to reach to the back of the shelf and turn the window cranks without knocking over any trains or structures on a shelf in front of the window sill), and an upper shelf at about 42 to 45 inches, which did not get in the way of releasing any window latches/locks or screen tabs? If so, you would be able to have 2 shelves that could be easily worked while seated in a chair. Adding a few loops to rise 12 inches in the helix will provide enough separation between decks to eliminate any issues related to the 12-inch overhang from the upper deck, especially if lower level tracks are deliberately kept closer to the front of the shelf, wherever possible. [If the windows have interior screens that must be replaced with glass inserts in winter, and they are taller than the distance from the upper shelf to the ceiling (meaning you will have to tip the top out at an angle to slide them into place behind the shelf), the back of the upper shelf could be notched an inch or two in front of the window.] Some general questions: 1. So far, all of your plans have shown an 8-inch wide lower shelf along most of the long wall. What factors have led you to that depth...as opposed to 9 inches, 12, 15, or 20? Do you need access to desks, tables, and/or dresser tops below the lower deck...so, you are allowing only a very narrow shelf? Have you negotiated space with others also using the room? Do you need such narrow shelves to leave enough aisle space for a wheeled chair/stool between the shelf and the bed or other furniture in the room? 2. Are you planning to use some sort of permanent wall-mounted supports, or will each module be free standing on its own legs (so there is no damage to the walls)? 3. Do you plan to have a backdrop that is permanently painted on the wall, hardboard permanently attached directly to wall, or hardboard attached to the upper part of the legs that support free-standing lower and upper shelves (and don't damage walls in any way--but may prevent access to a light switch 4 feet from the floor)? (By the way, where are the light switches in the room? Are there electrical outlets on the north or east wall low on the wall [below a 30 to 33 inch shelf but not behind a desk or dresser positioned under the layout], so you won't need to run an extension cord from the south or west wall.) 4. Could you include exact dimensions for the pipes and window sills along the north wall, specifically, how far from east wall they are, and how far they stick out from the north wall (this affects free-standing backdrop supports and free-standing shelf supports, and ultimately all shelf and aisle widths); for the east wall (NE corner to N wall of closet; N wall of closet [is it exactly 24', or just roughly]; E wall of closet; distance from N wall to the door when door is closed [does distance from N wall to empty box where door is open = 8'6", and is the empty box permanent or removable?]; exact distance from E wall to the east side of the door frame (how far from the E wall can a shelf extend and still leave adequate clearance for the door to open/close--looks somewhere between 45 and 54 inches); what are exact dimensions on the possibly permanent obstructions (boxes with X's) near the helix and their exact distance from north and east walls of the closet (I'm trying to figure out various shelf depths by the door, backdrop support positions, and helix ramp width, helix support, and helix loop diameter options). 5. Have you given any thought to how you will support the helix? Are you open to using a 5 loop, bowl-shaped helix (16 inch radius at bottom but continually increasing to 21 inch radius at top) to rise 12 inches with maximum 2% grade, instead of a 2 or 3 loop stacked helix with 18 inch radius and 2% grade to climb 5 or 7.5 inches. It is easier to construct a bowl shaped helix than a stacked helix, and INFINITELY easier to maintain and repair. Downside is that it has a larger footprint (which is why I've asked for exact dimensions on walls and permanent features in that area of the room). 6. If it is possible to increase lower shelf depth beyond 8 inches and to have an 8 to 12 inch upper shelf, your operation possibilities will increase dramatically. And it is relatively easy to fill in the additional scenery offered by the increased square footage of wider and longer shelves.
Thanks Dave I'll work up a track plan then, probably next weekend. In the meantime, this is what I'm working on, a 1:600 3D terrain model of a village with 3D printed buildings. Interesting project. Yes, the Xs are posts. I can get all around them, but they are fixed. The box on the lower left is a double bed, but I'm thinking I could make it a single and do an 18" helix on the left - if I stick to wanting continuous running. The small box on the left is an unmoveable pipe, but it only goes up to 45". The 8" shelf was a placeholder, I can definitely go wider. I was thinking where build stage 6 is will be much wider. I had been working with a loop at 6 but with this version of using the full wall, I can put in a 30" bulge out, or a little less if I use the full depth of the windows. The windows are recessed a full 7.5" and are modern horizontal sliders. They start at 39", so the 33" high window sill has some clearance. 2. Wall mounts, not concerned about the walls. (currently styrofoam insulation, so if I wanted I could not put up drywall and go directly to whatever the backdrop surface will be. 3. "permanent" backdrop, as much as anything is permanent. I haven't wired yet so options are open. I presume a light switch to the right of the door, but I could place it on the outside, to be moved to the inside if/when the backdrop is removed. I'm figuring on a master switch for the whole layout at the entrance somewhere. 4. Here's a print of the room, pink highlight shows what is built and fixed. The door will be 36" but I have a bit of flexibility on exactly how far from the north wall. I can't go below the right bottom post. The "closet" isn't built so I have some flexibility, ditto around the double posts. I'll put more measurements in when I do the next layout drawing. 5. I've been looking at the bowl-shape helix discussion and just eyeballing the plan it looks like there will be room. To get 21" will mean coming further north, so the right edge doesn't go beyond the notional 24" closet space. If it gets really tight around the helix I can use 1/4" ply "doors" around the helix for easy access and minimal space used instead of 2X4 stud wall and drywall. 6. I like the idea of the lower deck being chair (and kid) height. If at the 33" window sill height, does 48" seem a little low for the upper deck? I have a full woodworking shop so benchwork and helix construction and supports won't be a problem, especially as the room is only partially roughed in I have a lot of flexibility. I'm thinking benchwork will be supported by triangular bracing from lower on the wall, if not right to the floor at the wall, spaced so wheeled cabinets or tool boxes can go under. 3/4 plywood ripped to 4" for benchwork, doubled up where need for extra stiffness. Bench deck 1/8" ply with 1" foam, but early days on these thoughts. I figure I'm about 2 months from being able to start on the first section, 6 months to having the room finished (still have to do the ceiling too, and tile the floor). Cheers Scott
Here's a quick look at how a spiral might fit. The inner circle is 16" radius, middle is 21" (so track centres) while the outer is the footprint of a 22 1/8 radius spiral. The clearance, therefor footprint for Stirling as shown is 70" or 67" respectively. This looks quite doable. Just to keep an eyeball on continuous run possibilities, here's how it would look with a 21" spiral on the left, with a 36" single bed/couch. I think I'll leave the continuous run vs. point to point decision until after building Seaforth and Stirling and get some experience with them. Just keep the design open to both possibilities.
OK, I wasn't able to resist ;-) Here's the Seaforth and Stirling levels. I've added Butedale as a 20" shelf, means a 27" reach at the window. I've taken an additional turn on the spiral for 14 7/8" rise. There's sufficient width for both Seaforth and Butedale to be 28" deep, without any overlap. Is this generally what you are thinking?
You may want to track down a copy of Linn Westcott’s, “How to build Model Railroad Benchwork”, if you don’t already have it. Lots of good info on L-girder benchwork, which could go up quickly in the unfinished “train room” to provide support for modules you construct in a well-lighted, tools and materials handy, dust confining, workshop...if you have one. If not, you could use one end for your benchwork whether L-girder or Wall-mounted) for a workbench for module construction and start with the modules at the other end of the room. Regarding outlets and light switches... I have four 20 Amp Circuits in my 35x40 foot basement train room, and have tied room lights, all wall outlets, layout lighting, and track and accessories power to various wall switches and fascia mounted switches. If I had planned better, I would have arranged for 6 Circuits and would have installed electrical outlets accessible at the front of the layout benchwork instead of using extension cords from the wall outlets under the lower deck to power all my electric tools, battery chargers, dispatcher’s computer, etc. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
When we moved to this home, the basement included a family room, workshop, office, furnace room, and a fruit cellar. Except for the furnace room, every room is now dedicated to the train layout. The around-the-room track plan is next to but never attached to the wall, so when I leave (hopefully, a very long time from now), removing the train layout will return the basement to its original floor plan with minimal fuss or expense. If you have the option of setting the “walls that are not marked in pink” in one of you previous posts, wherever you want, and if you don’t need to enclose the train space to contain noise or dust, then having access to all sides of the helix will be very convenient. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
You could still put up easily moved panels to hide it, if you want, but access for maintenance is an issue for helixes. Two are my four helixes are in alcoves, one in a corner, and one at the base of a peninsula. Access to the peninsula helix, corner helix and the helix deep in the fruit cellar alcove is severely restricted...only from inside. Half of the 4 x 5.5 foot helix in the 3x5.5 shallow alcove is sort of easily accessed from the front, but still is easier to work on from the inside. If you go with a bowl-shaped helix, easiest access will be from the inside, but you will also benefit from leaving outside access from the south (and east, if that closet wall is still only on blueprints instead of already started). Additionally, a stacked helix (36 inch diameter cylinder instead of a bowl shape) on a previous layout was between a lower deck at 36 inches and upper deck at 58 inches. Access was only possible from the inside, which meant I had to crawl on hands and knees under the lower deck L-girder supports (30 inches clearance from the floor). On my current layout, the lower deck is at 48 inches, so the supports give me about 42.5 inches clearance to duck walk into a helix or (my preference) sit on a low wheeled stool, bend low, and roll into the helixes. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
On your layout, setting your lower deck at 36 inches would allow you to work the lower level while sitting on a chair, but will offer an absolute minimum of 35 inches clearance to enter the inside. Raising the lower deck to 39 inches (or higher while still providing adequate window access) will give more clearance for helix access at the cost of losing sit-down operation on the lower deck. For what it’s worth, a 30 inch high desk or table partially tucked under a lower deck will give you a shallow work surface forgetting tools, etc., but you can only open a laptop on the desk if you have enough clearance under the supports for the lower deck. (Sigh...the voice of experience.) Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Oops, can’t edit from my phone. First sentence above should end, “...clearance to enter the inside of the helix.” Third sentence should read, “...work surface for setting down tools, etc., but...” Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Thanks Dave The four circuits include the "normal" circuits? i.e. wall plugs and overhead lights? Based on what you have I'm thinking 2 additional 20 amp circuits, i.e. 3 to the room. For front of the layout benchwork outlets, you could retrofit permanent benchwork outlets with short extension plugs to the wall plugs?
Based on this, I'm thinking to leave the existing wall essentially unfinished and use panel board of whatever suitable material for the backdrop. Exit the train layout, it will be easier to remove the panel board and add drywall, rather than try and fix if I put up drywall now. I don't need to enclose the room for noise, but the table saw is in the room adjacent so as long as I keep the table saw and workshop, I'll need to enclose for dust. That said though, the enclosing "new" walls can be built specifically for the train convenience and also removed exit train layout. This doesn't change the east and south build constraints though, I can vary them a few inches, but can't encroach further into the adjacent space. I'm figuring each sectional build will be bolted to the next, so on departure, cut the scenery and track, unbolt and carry away. With much wailing and gnashing of teeth no doubt, but a little less than otherwise ;-) To enclose the helix I figure on the south hemisphere two circular doors on hinges. Only access constraints would be the exisiting posts and post for the hinges. Access on the north hemisphere will be across the benchwork for Seaforth and Stirling, so more challenging.
If the smallest radius is 16", the hole would be <15"? Too small to get into and work very easily, no? How did that last version of the layout with the approaches to the helix look, was that what you were thinking? Wouldn't it make sense to put staging on the left at both levels, rather than at the helix? Thanks Dave, this is really helpful.
