The local club has several fellas who have been converting the wheels on their HO rolling stock from plastic to metal (unless they're already equipped with metal wheels). I've seen where Proto2000 has metal wheelsets in 33" and 36" diameters, and ribbed (old-style) and plain-back (newer). What's your take on metal vs. plastic wheels, and for the metal-wheel folks, who else besides P2K has metal wheels? Sorry this isn't in a poll form, but the poll setup isn't working.
I use both Proto wheelsets and Kadee wheelsets. I especially like Kadee's trucks, because they add a little more realism and great performance. As far as size goes, there are some general rules that go for wheelsize and car types, but I just use the size that brings the coupler box to the correct height of my Kadee coupler guage.
Metal wheels all the way! I apply Proto 33" flat wheelsets to my new cars in masse, and as money allows am retrofitting them to all of my 350 odd cars. I feel that the decreased rolling resistance and lessened dirt transfer more than make up for the cost, and there is also the factor of sound. Metal wheels sound like the real thing! The rolling resistance issue comes to the fore when you start running longer and longer trains as it is a cumulative effect.
The protos seem to be the favorite among modelers and not pricey. That black finish on the Kd's does eventually transfer onto the track IM makes a more expensive ALL METAL AXle set.
We have standardised on metal wheels, mainly for the reasons above, smoother running, less dirt problems, I think it also reduces derailments through the reduced resistance & heavier weight at wheel, though that's kinda subjective. We use a real mixture, with some Kadee, Proto, Intermountain, Jaybee and probably a few more in the fleet. They all seem to run fine, but some seem to have slightly different characteristics. Kadee: Don't seem to roll as freely, (might just be my imagination?) I tend to use them on cars that get switched a lot, it means they don't roll away as easily as others! (Atlas freightcars are AWFUL for this!) Proto: Most cost effective recently, fairly cheap to buy & fit. Intermountain: Available in bulk, roll REALLY well! The wheels seem heavier & a bit bulky and possibly act like flywheels? Seem slightly more pricey than Proto. Jaybee: Seem similar to Intermountains, don't seem easy to get in the UK so we haven't used many, mine came with some stuff I got off Ebay from the US! Haven't a clue how much they cost new. About the only exception to the metal wheels is my Walthers spine car, the metal wheels were causing problems with the platforms, so that car has plastic wheelsets on the car end trucks only to stop any shorting, all four intermediate trucks have metal ones. I still have a big pile of "reserve fleet" freightcars that don't come out often, these usually get metal wheels swapped between them if they are needed for layout service.
Burn the plastic wheels, or use them to create a "junk pile" in your layout. I've piled some up in a gondola as a scrap metal load. Don't let them roll on your layout. Your track will stay cleaner, fewer derailments, rolls better, and you'll have the metal-on-metal sound as the cars roll by. I used to be a big Kadee fan, untill I had to (wanted to) install some lights into some passenger cars this last Christmas for around the tree. Kadee doesn't make a metal axle. Their axle is Delrin plastic. I was able to find some Intermountains cheaper than any other metal wheels. I'll never go back to Kadee again. Appears to roll easier, and I like the looks. Don't get me wrong, Kadee makes a very good wheelset, but Intermountain is better and if you buy them in bulk is fairly cheap. Whatever wheelset LBF uses works very well too. I just haven't tracked them down. All brass construction. Rolls very smoothly. Mark in Utah [ 24 May 2002, 20:48: Message edited by: Mark_Athay ]
Thanks guys! I purchased 2 packages of P2K 36" wheelsets from a hobby shop in Fayetteville, AR (they were on sale for $6.40 ), and installed 'em in the trucks of several Model Die Casting cars I bought (all painted & lettered Frisco, natch . With the Kadee number 58 couplers, they look much better! I've noticed that I'll need to do something to the wheels to kill the shine, but otherwise they look & run nice on my test track. So, what size wheels do y'all put on your rolling stock?
I'm in the process of converting from plastic to metal wheel sets... I especially like the metal wheels for the lighting of cars... Sadly, most have the delrin axles which makes lighting hard, BUT I will say that on the plastic axles this produces yet another problem if your a heavy hauler, and like to run trains for long periods of time. The axle point on the delrin axles will turn blunt after time and wear to the fact of wearing the truck frame. This is my 2 cents worth of not liking delrin or plastic axles... The metal axles if done correctly in a delrin truck side frame will not wear like the axle would if its made of delrin. I have to say I'm fond of the ALL METAL wheel sets, metal wheels and axles... They don't seem to wear on the axle point as much and doesn't wear out the axle point journals in the truck side frames. For all you older guys that knows the name Central Valley Craftmans Kits. I love these wheels and axles... Cheap, really well built, and reliable... Of everyone here Watash knows what I'm talking about... I have to give the credit where its due... Central Valley would give IM a run for their money! As for wheel diameter... Measure your plastic wheels, take that measurement and divide it by 1/87 then that answer divide by 12 (for the foot) then go buy the replacement wheels needded for the size... I wouldn't put a 33 inch wheel in where a 36 inch wheel was... For the fact of clearances... It can and sometimes will rub the frame if your not carefull, and hinder the cars track preformance... And then make more problems to overcome... And yes... The actuall measurement will NOT BE EXACT! It'll be off slightly as all my wheels have been measured and most are slightly over a scale 33 inch or a scale 36 inch... [ 24 May 2002, 23:49: Message edited by: 7600EM_1 ]
<font color="336633">I only ever use Metal wheels, so far they are mostly Kadee ones, 33 or 36 where appropiate. I have some P2k ones but only on those that came with them. I have got rid of all my Atlas ones as i really dont like the incorrect profile of the wheel. I might e going onto Athearn Metal wheels if I can get hold of them as the one on my Genesis boxcar look great, (and they are thiner than most although not quite scale).</font>
I am slowly converting to metal wheelsets as cash permits. As stated in an earlier post Athearn truck frames and Kadee wheelsets dont always mean free rolling cars. There is a tool available called "The Tool" that is designed to fit in between the Athearn (or any other) truck sideframes and "ream" the journals out to accept the needle point axles better. I dont own The Tool but have seen it demonstrated and it does improve the rolling quality on Athearn trucks. I have used Proto wheelsets on Athearn trucks and have had no problems at all. I will attempt to locate information on this little device and post it here. AF Niederer
The April 2002 issue of Model Railroader has an article by Lionel Strang on using metal wheels on HO rolling stock- it's in the Working on the Railroad section. Or, you can go to the Model Railroader website in Trains.com and scroll down (about 3/4 of the way down). It also mentions the Tool spoken of earlier. Unfortunately it doesn't do a comparison between the wheelmakers' products, so I'd go with the comments made here when buying wheelsets, recommendations by fellow modelers near you, or your own experience. [ 01 June 2002, 09:12: Message edited by: friscobob ]
I have to trust the experts like EM-1 on this. I totally agree with John, in my opinion, and experience, that Central Valley is the best wheel/axel set, as well as the best all around truck available today. I have to dissagree on their price being cheap, because I can only find them in the twenty dollar a pair range today. They were expensive at $1.87 a pair back when most other fraight trucks were 50 cents a pair. Lindberg, Lindsey, Ambroid, Globe, Ulrick and other trucks were all metal, as were the wheels, and they were either mounted with coiled springs, had phosphor bronze leaf springs, or had a shouldered screw that allowed the sideframes to ossillate as if sprung. All tracked really well. We didn't have derailment troubles unless we used the rigid Varney cast rigid or cheapo rigid plastic trucks when they came along. Cantral Valley trucks are really sprung and do work well. This allows them to flex to follow variances in rail height and really do prevent derailing. Solid rigid (one piece ) trucks will only run well on plate glass smooth track. That would not be realistic at all. Sight down along any track in the real world and just notice how it waves up and down and sideways. That is the reason there are NO solid trucks on real rail cars or engines. We are no better off regardless of the scale we model in. That is exactly the reason Marklin and Lionel had to make such ungodly long flanges, and HO and N scale wheels had to have the same extra long flanges because of the one piece rigid solid plastic trucks. The Manufacturer called them "Scale", we didn't. The ONLY advantage of a plastic wheel over a metal wheel, is to the manufacturer, not any advantage to us. The plastic wheel is automatically insulated for two rail operation, and it is way cheaper than making a metal wheel. Because of the way our scale rail is rolled into shape, it leaves a sharp edge on the corners of the rail head. You may have on occasion cut your finger, so you know how sharp it can be. A metal wheel will usually slide along this sharp edge and eventually wear it down to a more scale shape. So, a metal wheel does not NEED a long flange to track well. A plastic wheel will usually allow this sharp edge to "bite" into the flange enough to cause the flange to climb up on top of the rail head, and then derail. It eventually wears the plastic flange, but the rail stays sharp. A plastic wheel really NEEDS the extra long flange inorder to track well. Do keep in mind that even an RP-25 flange on a metal wheel is only as good at tracking as the truck it is mounted in. A solid rigid truck will still lift one wheel up off the rail at a dip, or turnout, so the RP-25 metal or plastic wont help here.
i see im not the only one who notices that the kd wheels dont roll as freely as they once did.perhaps i need to get the tool.im going to get some LL wheels and try them also.someone said i beleive that lindberg trucks were metal.i remember them being plastic with plastic wheels but they were sprung.i could be totally wrong on this issue.th in kansas....
That isn't necessarily true of unsprung trucks. As long as they (or any type of truck, FWIW) are installed properly on a properly weighted car, and the wheels are properly gauged, there shouldn't be any real difference in performance between them and sprung trucks. If the trackwork is inconsistent enough that derailments happen frequently, then it's time to fix the track. In fact, during my brief fling with sprung trucks (KD's) at my model RR club, I was disappointed in both their performance and appearance. They didn't roll very well, they tended to lose springs, and the wheelsets were so "free floating" they tended to derail more easily than a non-sprung truck. Not only that, the springs in all the different sprung trucks I've seen are way to light and "airy" looking in regards to the prototype, in addition to not having nearly enough spring groups. IMHO, most of the rigid trucks out there have sprung ones beat in the looks department as well. Combine that with their higher cost and decreased performance, all of the sprung trucks I had got tossed in favor of rigid trucks with metal wheelsets. Rolling quality also improved for me. My preference for wheels/trucks? Depends on the prototype. For most 70-ton cars, I've been using either the Kato Barber S-2 roller bearing trucks, and either Athearn or Accurail roller bearing trucks w/ Intermountain semi-scale tread, 33" wheels. Intermountain's are probably my favorite out of all the metal wheelsets I've used, and they roll great in most trucks, especially after the axle bearings have been cleared with a cleaning tool, like the one from Re-Boxx. When Athearn releases them seperately, I plan to start using their Genesis 70-ton roller bearing trucks on equipment that can utilize them; they look great on their SIECO boxcars, and should look good on most other equipment as well! 100-ton cars usually get Walthers trucks with 36" semi-scale Intermountain wheelsets. Now that they are available seperately, I have also started using the Athearn Genesis 100-ton roller bearing trucks. They roll great, and the semi-scale wheel profile and rotating bearing caps look really nice on tank and hopper cars, where the open ends can really show those features off. [ 01 June 2002, 17:54: Message edited by: SP 8299 ]
Paul, I have to disagree with that! I have a box full of Central Valley Sprung/Equilized trucks that will out preform any rigid frame truck I've gotten close too! They all roll like their are roller bearings in the axle caps of the truck side frames, being metal, and metal axles and wheels! they do not squeak or squeal! And not so much all that but adds extra weight to lower the center of gravity of the car their mounted to, so that the car at the top doesn't wobble or vibrate.... On a rigid plastic or even a rigid metal truck, being stiff and not forgiving leave the cars wobble or vibrate over rail joints, and turnout frogs.... Where a sprung/equilized truck will flex and give and not allow the car body to wobble or vibrate, and lead into a potential derailment... As I read your post SP, I had to disagree and say what I know to be fact, and the fact is, the sprung trucks you had were not mounted true to the car! These trucks with being sprung and equilized must me mounted to the car in precission or they will not function properly. Their can not be no side to side give in the bolster to truck center beam mount between the screw or snap... This is the first and formost reason these type trucks fail and do not preform properly.... Also, the wheels must be gauged so that they ride the rail as made to, not like the NMRA standards gauge shows! That standards gauge in HO is made for rigid frame trucks! Their should not be no more then 1/32 of an inch gap between a wheel to the rail... It should fit tight and not be over tight fitting and not loose! On rigid trucks they are set to the standards gauge so that when rolling they have large wheel treads, and over 1/32 of an inch of side to side motion in the truck on track in side to side slip of the wheel tread...This is why those sprung trucks didn't preform as you may have thought... As for fly away truck springs, I have never lost one spring yet from a Central Valley truck! As I will agree I have lost KD truck springs... Untill I bought the proper tools to install springs and remove them for replacement of stronger ones! As for cost of sprung trucks, todays aren't that great for $5 to $10 a pair.... As for Central Valleys I would pay that! They're better quallity for the cost then todays sprung trucks, concidering I have paid $5 for KD's but that was at the very last resort, being Central Valley's are getting hard to get! And when found in an auction in ebay the guys who know what they are knows what they're getting and will run the cost high for them being far superior to most Sprung trucks of today....
Sorry John, but from my personal experiences, I gotta respectfully disagree with you on the performance of sprung trucks. From what I've seen in ops at my club, and experiences from other club members, I just feel sprung trucks aren't worth the expense and trouble. The KD trucks I used were their 100-ton truck with 36" wheels, and I had some mounted on a variety of cars from Athearn, Intermountain, and Accurail. After very disappointing perfomance from them on properly weighted cars, and after realizing they looked very little like the prototype (springs are too skinny, and not enough of them!), off they came. The truck/wheelsets I mentioned previously have worked very reliably for me; I haven't had any problems or noise from them (aside from that nice smooth rolling sound you get from a 40-car train that is equipped with metal wheels ). Rolling resistance of trains is also reduced, and derailments are infrequent....the few I have are usually caused by operator error . The new Athearn Genesis 70 and 100-ton trucks are becoming my new favorite standard, since they roll great, are appropriate for my era and equipment I operate, and importantly to me, look great. The semi-scale tread and rotating bearing caps are winners in my book. Naturally, these are my opinions; YMMV [ 02 June 2002, 07:59: Message edited by: SP 8299 ]
Paul, I can agree with you conserning the Kadee trucks. My comments were regarding Central Valley trucks of the 1939-42 era, when we could expect well made precision parts and assemblies. As I understand, Kadee bought the old Central Valley line, and has been trying to equal the old line with their new "improvements". I am not thrilled about the Kadee trucks either. I weight my cars more than most people, so the springs actually do "work" on my cars. I have listened to several rather heated arguments about not having to add any weight to a car with sprung trucks. (I found the springs so strong the truck would not flex without added weight, and derailed going over Atlas #8 frogs.) I do admit that rigid trucks "can" operate most of the time on very smooth track, and will sometimes "carry" a wheel over the Atlas gap. But more often it has happened that the rigid truck will derail on curves when mounted on longer passenger cars when attempting to negotiate curved track less than 26" radius. "Looks" was not such a big thing with us back in the 40's because we didn't give so much attention on closeup photographs like we do today. We had the excitement of seeing the side rod motion of our steamers which isn't available on diesels. As a matter of fact, we got almost as much fun out of watching the sprung trucks go over "realistic" track, as we did watching a long wheelbased steamer going over the same track! Our engines were either sprung or equalized back then though, not rigid framed like today. I understand you enjoy having your equipment "look" good, but my main enjoyment is seeing my equipment "Run" realistically, so I will accept the skinny springs. I even get bored watching diesels run by regardless of color, because there is no action, nothing moves. So it really boils down to what you have gotten used to, and we have all gotten used to different things. That is why we all get along so well together. Its like John says to me, "Watash, I'll admit I'm right, if you'll admit you're wrong!" (I usually agree)
This is NOT a plug for this company, but I found Reboxx on the 'Net. They have a neat chart that lists which wheel/axle combo goes to which manufacturer's trucks, plus there's a mention of their tool used to measure axles. From what I've seen on Reboxx wheels, they're skinnier than, say, Proto2000's wheels, and therefore look much closer to proper width. I still will use P2K, but I may take a closer look at the Reboxx wheelsets. They look like the brand to go with if you're into fine-scale modeling (that is, making your cars, locomotives, track, etc. look so much like the real thing).
Thanks Friscobob, I am not really "up" on the latest things, because I stocked so much stuff over the years, I didn't need to buy any new equipment. I'll look into Rebnoxx wheels and see how they work on Kadee sprung truck frames. Later. Right now I'm in the middle of machining fittings for my turn table.
No problem, Watash! Last time I dealt with sprung trucks, I had bought a caboose (looked kinda Pennsy-like) at a swap meet in Ft. Worth. The trucks looked OK, but ran like crap. I swapped 'em out with other trucks while I was painting the caboose, and it's been running OK ever since. Any more metal wheelsets are going on my 100-ton Frisco coal hoppers- afterwards, I may put 'em on the other rolling stock.
