My Kato daylight cars are wonderful for detecting the slightest grade in the track and will easily roll away until the reach level track or very close to level. ....... thinking more on the lighting problem, my observation car does have the lighted "Daylight" sign and if I remember it works on DC or DCC (I could be wrong) ....... If I'm right about that DC / DCC compatibility could it affect some DCC reversers ???
I was just experimenting to see if isolating the 2 ends of the cars had any effect........it didn't. I've pretty much concluded that , as tonkphilip pointed out , that the first issue is the train of lighted (or at least wired) cars is too long for the reverser section, but since the section is on a wye, I can't make it any longer. But my question remains, the lighted cars, and the locos are wired the same..........so why can multiple locos pass thru the reverser section, but even one car added to the mix throws the auto reverser off and sets my base into alarm. If they are wired the same, shouldn't they function the same? What appears to be happening is that when one of the cars gets one truck in the reverser section and the other outside, while the locos are in the reverser section, the autoreverser just starts "buzzing" back and forth between directions which is what is sending the base into alarm. But having several locos pass into the section works fine. What is making the cars work differently? I've accepted that the cars are going to live their life with plastic wheels, which fixes all the problems, but I'd still like to figure out why.
Why do you think you're the only guy out of hundreds who have bought thousands of Kato name trains that has found that they don't get along with DCC unless you install plastic wheelsets. Really dude, you should be looking anywhere but the Kato passenger cars.
I AM looking.........that's why I'm on here asking. Try to be helpful. I'm not criticizing Kato cars, but right now that's the only common denominator I have because everything else I have works on the layout . No locomotives, no freight cars, and no other passenger cars cause problems.
I am trying to be helpful by pointing out that you're barking up the wrong tree. Leave those great Kato passenger cars in their OEM condition, and find the real problem.
I'd love to, but it's hard to pin down when 200 locos, 500 freight cars, and 80 other passenger cars all run perfectly, and one set of Kato passenger cars has issues. It's pretty hard to NOT blame the Kato cars. I tried very hard to eliminate possible problems with the cars (like removing the internal phosphor bronze bar, checking for bad wheels, ect.) and nothing has fixed the problem except putting in the plastic wheels. The cars are wired just like the locos are, so they shouldn't be causing problems, but put any one of the cars behind the locos and all hell breaks loose. Since everything else works, I can't really "fix" anything as far as wiring, track, ect. goes, because how do you fix it if it's not broken.......except for one set of cars. In fairness, I've only tried the one set of Kato cars.........I have several, but the one we are discussing is the only one that runs on the home layout. But the other common thread, is this set is the only set of cars that has track powered lighting. All the other passenger sets are unlighted, or use battery lighting. At this point it's mostly just frustrating.........it isn't worth doing a major track revision for this one set of cars (and it might not ever fix it anyway when I can't figure out what to fix) especially when I never planned to light the cars anyway, so the plastic wheels isn't an issue . But part of me still wants to figure out what's going on. The train runs fine on the rest of the layout (unmodified), but the wye/reverser section leads down to my staging yard so it would be nice to have the train go thru it.
Thought of something that might just be simple. Check to make sure, if they have metal axles, that all wheels have the polarity correct. Other words all wheels on a truck have the insulated wheels on the same side on each truck. If you have a car with lighting not having the wheels proper will cause a short
Well, I pulled out a Kato Business car and removed an axle and that's when I realized i don't even have the tool I recommended. Anyway, just eyeballing it, the Kato axle definitely seems longer that the M/T axle length (0.540). Now I have an excuse to go to Harbor Freight.
To me is appears that one of those wheelsets is out of gauge, which would not be dependent on axle length.
On the plastic axle (on the left), the gauge is set by moving the wheel shafts within the plastic axle, so both the gauge and the distance between the axle points changes at the same time.
Dave.... From what I understand this set is for your home layout only. If that is the case and you are like me a really don't give a hoot about lighted passenger cars pull the axles and put plastic ones in !! Save the original axles just in case you ever sell it...you can put them back in. There is nothing more annoying then not having your trains running right at home. JMO.
Dave, you wrote, "...The cars are wired just like the locos are, so they shouldn't be causing problems, but put any one of the cars behind the locos and all hell breaks loose." Just to clarify the issue, do I understand correctly that the locomotives running alone (with no cars) have no problems but when you add just one car the problem arises? If so, is it any car or just one particular car?
Dave, Does the problem with the Kato cars happen on the main line track? Or, does it just happen on the reversing section? I understand how a locomotive trips the reversing section setting the correct polarity, as it moves onto the section. I would not expect a following passenger car to trip the reversing section as the locomotive has already set the polarity correctly, unless the reversing section is really short. If you really need to pull the passenger car onto a short reversing section as part of the Wye, you could minimize the reversing section to the other half of the Wye where passenger cars do not need to go. Certainly any metal wheel can trip the reversing section but not if it has already been set correctly by the locomotive because the polarity will be the same. Of course, a short reversing section will never be compatible with a long train with metal wheels. A track drawing would be helpful for suggestions on how your reversing section could be reoriented to meet your needs. - Tonkphilip
mtntrainman........that's exactly where I'm at now. I just wish I could figure out what the problem is. Inkaneer........Yes. Loco consists have no problem anywhere on the layout. Other metal wheeled cars cause no problems either, just the "wired for lighting" Kato cars, and no it doesn't matter which car, they all act the same. Tonkphilip.........The cars run fine as long as I keep them away from the autoreverser. You are correct about the reversing section.....the puzzling thing is why multiple locos cause no issue but a loco and a car do. The cars and the locos are wired the same (except for the motor). The way my layout is set up, the main layout is a large dogbone (40 x 16 ft around the wall, with a 24 x 4 ft peninsula in the middle) The wye that is causing the issue goes across one of the dogbone loops and into a small interchange yard before continuing into a long grade down the 42' wall and then into my staging yard which is a 6 track loop under the peninsula (so each track is 40+ ft long) Where the wye comes into play, is that it allows trains to come off (or onto) the layout from either direction into the staging yard, It also gives me an extended mainline where I can make a train disappear for several minutes even if it doesn't stop in the yard.........so the wye is actually pretty importand to the way I planned to operate the layout. This is a very early photo with the wye at the bottom ....so the track curves to the left and goes down the front of the layout, to the right it goes down the wall, and to the front it loops around and begins heading back down the long wall under the layout. It's really pretty straight forward and not too complicated.
I checked them both and they both fit the wheel gauge fine, must be the angle of the camera creating an illusion.
Dave, You have a wonderful big layout. You also have great possibilities for extending the reversing section length. See my sketch attached which uses two reversing sections so that they do not interact. I have suggested 10 ft reversing sections assuming that your longest train is about 8 ft. Tell me what you think. - Tonkphilip
Although it would probably be better , do you think extending the reverse section would fix the problem (it certainly wouldn't hurt)........I thought about that, but haven't acted since the current problem is occuring within the existing section (not because the section is too short) and altering things would be a bit of work. The way you did it would be the way I would do it though, putting the break at the end of the yard. Not too hard.....I'd need to add insulated joiners at the end of the yard and on the other leg of the wye, remove the one set of joiners from the original insulated leg, and I'd need to add another feed from the autoreverser since the current one is in the wye and it would be a pretty long run without another feeder. That would give me the 10 ft section you mention. Although I had the whole layout planned out on Atlas track planning software before I ever started, I only built the "main" part when I first started. The layout ended just a few inches beyond where my picture ends, so there was a wye, and then nothing for over a year while I worked on the main layout. Last fall, I added an 8ft x 2ft extension to the wye. That's one reason the wye got wired the way it did initially, and why it never really got tested till recently........and initially everything worked.........till I pulled out the Kato cars. Sorry........I hate wiring, and right now I'm just getting started on my other "problem".........I used all #10 turnouts and a few curved turnouts on the mainline before I realized that was going to force me to power all the frogs. The frogs on the curved turnouts are 1 7/8" long and the #10s are 1 5/8 long. ........at that length you completely lose power to one truck, or on small switchers, only one axle still gets power. I had toyed with powering the frogs, but as I said, I hate wiring. I now have no choice for reliability purposes. Everything DOES work though since I usually run multiple locos, and oddly, some locos run thru like there's no issue.......my little 44 T Bachmann loco runs around like there's no problem , and others, like my Athearn challenger (with 18 wheel pickup over 10 inches) will stall. But I'm wandering off subject here. In the staging yard, my plan is to animate things, so I plan to use a reverser that also has the ability to throw the mainline turnout (but not the sidings) but I think your diagram would work. Thanks for taking the time to draw it out.
Sounds like it could be a problem in the cars or in the wye. However, if the cars are fine on other sections of the layout then I'm thinking the problem is in the wye. So two questions arise. 1. What brand are your switches? (Atlas, Peco electrofrog, insulfog or unifrog, etc.)? 2. Did you gap the two rails behind the frog?
Dave, From your description above with #7 and #10 turnouts, I surmise that you are using Atlas Code 55 track. They have a nice side contact for soldering the frog. For your general comment on wiring, even though I am an electrical engineer, I do not enjoy wiring things under the layout! For my yard (see photo), I did a few things that made it much easier: 1. I marked out the track layout on top of the plywood. 2. I soldered feed wires underneath every length of flexible track, switch and switch frog connection before laying them. 3. Laid the track temporarily to mark 1/4 inch wire holes for each piece of track and switch. 4. Tipped my plywood yard track boards 90 degrees and clamped them, so that I could work easily on the top side and bottom side of the boards at the same time. This made it much easier to see and layout the wiring busses. 5. Used 3M red suitcase connectors (Micromark and other suppliers), to connect the 22 gauge track feeder wires to 16 gauge subsidiary bus and then connected the subsidiary bus to my main 12 gauge bus. 6. Also installed and wired all the Tortoise switch machines while I could reach both sides of the plywood board. If you cannot tip the plywood at this stage, then still use the extra reliable 3M connectors as they are better under the layout than dropping solder into your hair. Also, consider putting all your wiring connections in a pocket along the front of the layout, either recessed into the foam and/or behind the hardboard fascia. One last thing, wiring each piece of track with medium/large gauge wires is very important for fire safety on a large DCC layout because of the large DCC currents and the potential volt drop and heating with smaller Code55 track and wires. The standard DCC Quarter-test across the rails everywhere on the layout, is a quick test to ensure that your wiring and the DCC breaker operates correctly. I have a few thoughts on The DCC reverser and Kato cars. But, first what DCC model/manufacturer are you using and also the model type for the auto-reverser? But, certainly you will need to lengthen the reversing sections. - Tonkphilip
