Issues in Asking for Layout Design Advice

First, let me say that when I started out in layout design I was just like everyone with little idea of anything, a head full of wishes and dreams, no experience, no skill, and greatly intimidated by the quality I have seen in magazines and in real life of layouts I lusted to own. To get to where I am now has meant thousands of hours of reading, working on other's layouts, visiting shows and talking, and designing many plans for myself and my son.

What I have learned is that until you have struggled with the issues in layout design, it is difficult to have an appreciation for them.

For example, I didn't want to have a double deck layout. I wanted to have one deck so that I wouldn't have any interference from above, pulling my attention away. But over time, given the size of room I was working with and the "givens and druthers" I had, it was a double deck layout I settled on.

And if there is a double decker in a small room then you have the issue of a helix - I won't even get into that here. And what type of benchwork - L girder, open grid or other. And how about layout height, how high the upper level and how low the lower one.

When you first start in layout design you feel like the guy on the old Ed Sullivan show who was spinning a hundred plates at a time while balancing a fork on his nose. If you do this, it affects that. If you say yes here, you are saying no there. It means you understand the need for standards and why they evolved. Even more basic, the realization that standards exist: "you mean my new brass steamer won't do 18 inch curves?" (been there, done that, said that - denial didn't work) Did you know that brass engines can have a dickens of a time on a 2.5 grade, or more importantly do you know how to calculate a 2.5 grade?

When I first started working with other people's layout requests, I was enthusiastic but I failed to realize that the design process requires learning and education. So I would enthusiastically make suggestions, spend gobs of time drawing up plans, only to have them thrown aside by the requesting party. They would say: "I want this, this, and that." And I would realize, you can't have all that and have it work, or look good, or be operationally interesting. But I had done my homework, and they hadn't struggled with the issues.

This doesn't mean they won't be superior in design ability to me, I know many will be. It doesn't mean they don't have the ability to learn, many are much smarter than me. But it does mean that there is a certain amount of sweat equity that has to go into design layout work, before one can create a layout that is quality in design, operationally interesting, visually a banquet, and electrically and engineeringly sound.

So whenever I see a request for feedback, I groan inwardly. Now what do I say to this person, am I honest and tell them what I really think. Or, do I say: "it looks great (when I think it stinks)" But when I do that, I feel I have cheated them.

I can remember when I settled on my final layout I was going to build (that was back about a hundred plans ago....lol). I was so proud, I had picked one from MR - it looked great - I had modified it. I knew it was a winner.

I then showed a friend I trusted. He took one look at it and said: "Oh, two reversing loops and a yard on a grade. Nope...won't work!" Of course I did the right thing and didn't listen to him. But his comments kept eating at me and eating at me. Eventually I knew he was right. Now I would think, why would anyone of sound mind and body design a yard on a grade....other than me....lol.

So I still groan when I see a post requesting a critique, and I try to be as honest as I can in the critique. And I know I am peeing on some one's parade, I know how that feels. But I can't give any other kind of feedback, without feeling I have cheated you and I don't want to do that.

I didn't get where I got with out encouragement, and a lot of help from my friends. I have been discouraged, intimidated, scared I couldn't do something, aware that I had no skills at all in most (I take that back) in all the areas of model railroading.

But I have learned much of it is easier than you think. Flex track isn't that big a deal, reversing loops with DCC are no big deal , grades are still grades....lol...and usually (but not always) lesser is better than more.

So when you receive critique of your layout, it is done with gentle caring concern that you get the most out of the hobby. Or at the very least, when you decide against an idea you are informed about it enough to know the compromises that have to be made to build a satisfying model railroad you are proud to show your friends...and the occassional enemy...lol.

[ 26 April 2001: Message edited by: rsn48 ]

 

I few of you reading this may recall that I have a fine art degree. I have ever since been of the opinion that everyone should take at least one art class and at least on philosophy class.

In art class, there is this thing called 'group critique' where one person puts all his hard work up on the wall and is completely exposed. There is this odd silence where someone might say something like "I like it" which is completely meaningless. The instructor normally tells who said that to define exactly why they like it. This is when it gets interesting. The work is gradually taken apart piece by piece and if you are the artist, you feel that you are also taken apart. Usually comparisons are made to famous artists, influences etc. You the artist start to see and understand why you did what you did. Of course the worst thing that can happen if you are the artist is for someone to say "I don't like it" (remember you are totally exposed) and now, the teacher will ask why. This may seem like a disaster, but I must say some of the best, and most useful and constructive critiques I have been in started with "that sucks" (I've been on the receiving and the giving...)

What on earth does this have to do with track plans?

Well, all of us have favorite railroads and favorite locomotives and we know that we like those things but not many of us have taken the time to sort out why we like them. We also are influenced by published trackplans and incorporate what we like into our own plans - but we might not even know it.

What I am trying to say, is that when someone puts up their own hard work and you don't like it, simply saying it's no good does not help you or the person asking. Looking for ways to improve, finding the things that are working (sometimes there arn't any.) Constructive criticism is very difficult to give and to receive.

 

To rsn48: Amen and Amen. I can still remember talking to my local hobby shop guy (who is no longer in business because everyone came to him for advice and then ordered by mail) about how to wire my first layout. He finally got frustrated with me trying to explain to me why a reversing section does not necessarily always look like a loop(and rightly so), handed me a 1970's edition of a Linn Wescott book "How to Wire Your Model Railroad", told me it was a gift, and not to ask him another question until I understood basic electricity. I got the point, took a home course on the subject, and then bought him a brass model for Christmas (unfortunately, his last in business).
He is still a good friend and has painted several locos for me (another skill I am trying to develop).
There is NO substitute for getting your feet into the muck (comment by a grunt friend of mine, and very true).
And I, for one DO really appreciate all you guys who have helped me out from time to time. Constructive criticism need not always be flattery.

 

Here's my viewpoint for giving and receiving critism:

I always remember that it is their viewpoint. When receiving it, I think "Can I incorporate their suggestion without unacceptably compromising what I'm trying to accompish?"

When I give advice I will often mention that it is my viewpoint and for consideration, but make sure it works for them or don't use my advice.

Now that all this has been said, I will soon have some pictures of part of my layout posted on trainboard. If you come accross it, please point out what you like AND don't like and the whys. I'm really looking for feedback here. I'll consider what you say, and I might use it or I might not - its my railroad and more than anyone else it needs to please me.

I also know however, that without ya'lls input and thoughts my modelling will not improve.

Scot

 

Thanks for the well thought out comments rsn48 and the rest of you for your understanding of the process. Rob, you have come up with a great thought process when it comes to expressing what it is we like or don't like about something. Sometimes we need a teacher or leader to make us express our real feelings that are often cloaked in simplicity.
When it comes to layout plans, my first look at it asks does it flow? What I mean by that is how will a train look flowing through they way a person plans their curves and switches. I have torn up track work and redone sections because a train didn't look right as it negotiated my track work. It has taught me that simpler is better and not to jam in as much track as i first thought I should have. It is so true that one has to get in there and try to create a layout in order to learn but must then have the courage to change things when they aren't right. We live and learn.

 

The first thing I look for is the main line - from there I hope I can find a sense of purpose. Even in a switching layout - for me I need to see the point a to point b thing happening. I have no problem with simple oval plans - for many of us that's all we have room, money or time for. Heck for many of us it is what we want. And I have seen some very simple plans (the Appalachian Central from Jan 2000 MR discussed in a separate thread for example) that have a sense of purpose to them, yet don't take up a ton of space, are not attached to a wall, and allow continuos running.

 

"Why are all yall pickin' on me?" "May the Blue Bird of happiness crap on your Birthday Cake!"

You are all exactly correct, you and we all, can be in dissagreement, yet make helpful suggestions with an attitude of friendlyness, like dad would. I just try to share experience, some knowledge, and do it with some humor. I know what you mean, but none of us wants to get our feelings hurt. If we are feeling tender about some aspect of our layout, then ask a real friend off line. If we are stumped for a solution, or seek the better solution, then ask and be ready to consider what everyone suggests. Maybe just a discussion of how everyone did it and why is enough.

I'm different than all of you. My main interest is action around the engine facilities, so a big roundhouse. I like big engines, so a big turntable. I want to run my big engines somewhere, so I have a mainline that goes around twice before coming back to point of origin, with 2% ruling grade bothways. For my medium sized engines I have another double go-a-round farther up the canyon. For my smaller and logging engines I have a 2% until the top where it gets 4% just logging with a Y to come back down. There is a remote operated crane to load logs up there. mid way down is a small yards. Why? I'm tired of switching yards, long mainlines, and watching a train run in a circle til I get sleepy. I may not even paint scenery. I'll cover the open spaces so engines wont fall to the floor. I want to run each engine I have. I don't want to have to repair one or change the paint to make it look dirty, or to meet someone's idea of what the correct thickness of the head light lens was 50 years ago. I don't care.

Now, guys, feel free to criticize my layout, and maybe I'll find out what I have left out. You can't hurt my feelings, and I am not on this Board to hurt anyone's either. I'll help if I can, but as you have found out, if I don't know, I will say so, or keep quiet. I will never intentionally run anyone's idea down. I might reason with you, but only like your dad would when trying to help you figure out something.

I think that is what rsn48, Yank, and Garphite are all talking about, or did I miss the point? I may not LIKE your layout for ME, but I might like it for YOU.

 

This is a great thread.

After finally getting back into the hobby on a "advanced beginner" ( lol) stage,I have come to one conlusion.

There isn't a model railroad out there that is right for everyone.

I have been doing alot of reading in the past few months,and the only thing that seems to be in most all of the different books,websites and threads I have read is "is it right for you?"

Some people have been very helpful. RSN and Watash have both stand out as offering lots of advice.From long replies to actually sending a benchwork design.

I have tried my best to find the right answer in all the books and have found that there isn't one. Some thing are,or at least should be in black and white.But the majority of the questions I have asked do not have a right answer.

For some cringe at what I have planned.Others seem to like it.But I have to take everything on a give and take level. If I offer something for critique, I hope if I missed something truly obvious, thats a total disaster waiting to happen, that someone will indeed point it out.

I would much rather have my grand plans changed on paper than have to recut wood and plaster. I appreciate all the help I have gotten from this forum. Some things I have had a rough idea of,some I have found I thought I knew and found out I wasn't even close to right.

Watash said he is different than all the rest of us. And he is very right. All of us are different and a layout that seems perfect to me may make him shudder.Same with everyone else out there.
Its your layout and your time and energy going into it.The only thing that makes it right for you is "does it pass the main question...Does it make you happy?"That is the only requirement I have.
I will give up wider radius turns to fit in my double main line. I will stay with block wiring instead of going to DCC, as the majority of time it will be just me running the layout. I will run shorter train lengths than prototypical due to a lack of space.

Alot of things I have to give up to fit my space and my situation.

I for one hope no one is afraid to give criticism.Constructive or not. If there is a reason you don't like something include it but to me opinions are what this forum is about.I am taking all of the opinions I am getting and trying the best I can to fit most of them into my layout.

The main problem I have is There isn't enough room or money to incorporate all the great ideas I have received so far.So like the rest of the process I have to sacrifice some to fit another piece in. And what didnt fit here might fit over there.And this part might work for that situation over there.

Like I said I have discovered there isnt "black and white" answers for most of the questions I have. But I personally find all of you gents "shades of grey" answers to be a invaluable source of information.

Thanks again for all the help and ideas I have got so far. There will be more questions in the near future I promise =-).

Later Greg

 

I agree with Alan, my experience shows that any layout I have created always changes from the plan and evolves over time just like a growing thing. If it can't change, it dies. Believe me that is true. It gets torn down and another rises from the ashes. My current layout is far from being completed but already changes are happening or are planned to change then I have started thinking about the next layout for when we move to a smaller retirement home. The only criterior for this next home is for an unfinished basement and my next layout will definately not be a double deck like the current one. More on this later.

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by watash:

I'm different than all of you.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes watash, we are all very aware that you are different from us! lol - and that is exactly why I value your input.

But we all build model RRs for different reasons and each of those reasons is perfectly valid.

One of the things I don't like about the ldsig is that it is very focused on linear, operation oriented pikes. I was turned off by some recent Malcolm Furlow bashing where his plans were accused of being 'non-operation oriented' and Disney-like. Well let's see, Malcolm Furlow works for Disney and I don't think he gives two hoots about operation. He is a talented artist who likes to watch his trains run though his scenerey - who cares if he dosen't have a timetable?

That said - I like linear operation oriented pikes so, I still hang out at ldsig. It just bugs me when they bash Furlow and (oh my) John Allen.

Yesterday I got Model Railroad Planning 2001 (finally it's in OZ) and the last page article is by Jeff Wilson. Jeff's CB&Q layout along the Mississippi was featured in MRP1999 - he was planning to dupilcate as prototypicly accurate as possible a day's worth of trains through one small section of the line. Well, he gave that up and is now proto-freelancing a layout that is based upon the Q in 1964.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Jeff Wilson in 2001 MRP page 98:
Some of my friends have lamented my passing from the ranks of farily strict prototype modeling to the world of prototype free-lancing. I just smile and remind tehm that my layout is not a historical museum - it's just a big toy that I enjoy playing with. And that is why I got into this hobby in the first place. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Amen Jeff and Good on ya!

 

I simply build to ENJOY. I work to pay the bills and after a long day at the desk building or repairing, even painting and nothing went right all day I set myself in front of my layout and run all the trains my heart desires! For me model railroading and all the fun that goes along with it is an out let for stress, NOT TO MENTION FUN!!! Its your layout and its your dream make it how you want! Your the creator so have at it and have a blast doing it!!!

[ 29 April 2001: Message edited by: 7600EM_1 ]

 

Guys, believe it or not, I appreciate the vote of confidence, and try to return the favor to everyone. My nature is one of live and let live, often falling of into humor.

At times I realize I can be down right silly, but have sometimes been able to catch myself feeling sarcastic when certain subjects begin to get out of hand. I have a lot of patience with someone who really wants to learn and is trying. I have no patience with the self appointed Dictator type who comes on loud and vicious demanding that we all bow down to his demands. I have run into this guy in school, at work, inclubs,in stores, and even on the highway. My first thought is, "Who died and made you GOD?"

My heart has gone out to too many of the guys, not all youngsters, who seem to be all thumbs, that have tried to put something together as best they could, but in all fairness, it just did not work out. The poor guy feels bad enough. He certainly does not need for some loud mouth know-it-all to snear and comment to all present holding this guy up to ridicule as a dumb bunny. I came through a thing where the motto is, "Don't Tread on ME!" and has a coiled rattlesnake insignia. It raises the hackles on my back and I begin to snarl at the blow hards; in defence of the student who is wanting to learn, but just hasn't got to the polished craftsman stage yet.

The guy who is humble enough to ask for knowledge, deserves honest instruction, advice, and encouragement from anyone who is more experienced. It does not always fly that the oldest member of the clan is the wisest, though throughout history he who lived the longest had gained the knowledge to do so. I try to keep in mind that there are young people who have studied and learned things that have never been of enough interest to me, to have spent my efforts to even think about.

Case in point: I have yet to even give serious thought to re-painting an "N" scale anything, much less an engine. If I then turned to Craig (of BLMA) and asked for his advice, I am telling him he is more experienced than I feel I am. It is an Honor to him. I am older, but he is more experienced, so he would be expected to provide the more accurate information. I could point out a book full of similar situations, but my point is: we can help eachother just as you would a brother, or your son. We are not in competition here.

We all agree that whatever design is used for any layout, the structure will perform the best possible, when there is some substantial supporting benchwork.

Wood is so far the usual material used to make some sort of frame. You can nail it, glue it, screw it, and dove tail, and peg it.
Experience: I had some modules made to blueprint by a master cabinet maker. They looked fine and met blueprint within tolerance, I paid for them. When they were delivered, I found he did not use Gorilla glue as requested, he had used Casco glue which is very brittle. In stead of the two power nailer brads allowed to hold each joint in place for gluing, he had up to seven nail brads at each joint. The module was not slightly flexible as DESIGNED. I had intended to be able to drill and glue in pegs where desired later for strength.

Because of the multitude of nails, it could not be repaired. During some of the construction, hammering other nails, there was a loud "POP". I discovered the Casco Glue joint had given way. Only the seven brads were holding my expensive engines from falling to the floor!

JUST BECAUSE SOMEONE HAS A PHD DOES NOT MAKE HIM WORTH A FLIP IN CONSTRUCTING SOMETHING!

We are all like family here, our aim is to own the finest rolling stock, structures, scenery, and empire we can achieve. By pooling our resources, we can all benefit more than if one tries to out do another.
There will always be genieuses like Paul, Roger, John, and several hundred others, who have the nack for doing museum quality layouts and dioramas and producing photos of their work.

But guys the rest of us will just have to put up with them. Its a relief that they are nice enough fellows to give us all instruction, tips, and even show us how we can best achieve those things we would enjoy having on our layouts.

I tried to start a Forum on How To, Tips,but maybe this discussion would better serve as a Forum, a stockpile of Layout Design Information Tips. Like a library of solutions.

 

Watash. I agree whole heartedly with what you said. The way I see it is "Do unto others what you would have them do unto you"

 

Some really great posts, from both the heart and the head. Layout design has many issues to contend with and yet I am aware if a newcomer is overwhelmed with advise they could be driven away from trainboard and the hobby. I like David Barrow's "Dominoe's" idea because I think he is truly struggling with a way to bring a newbie in and have them up and running at a much more "sophisticated" rate than would be normally the case.

He has created a system where the newbie can pick and choose the design, still create something unique, able to deal with simplified wiring using DCC and hand throws, build in sections so that something is up and running quickly, without many of the challenges such as grades, helixes, and what have you. I hope a book is put out for the beginner.