I've thought of how I could operate my (see below) DCC layout. But I began to wonder how other more experienced operational folks would view it. Does this design lend itself to fun and good operational possibilities? Or are their problems, given my limited operational knowledge, I have not seen? Now's the time to fix them. your suggestions are welcomed. click for large size Thanks See ya
Switchman: That's a very large layout. In my opinion you need a reverse loop to change direction on the mainline, which if you follow it, is a very large figure eight. Once you're in that loop, you can't change direction. A reverse loop off the mainline would change that. I haven't even looked at the the yard tracks. Most of my attention is focused on your main line. Stay cool and run steam.......
If it were me... I wouldn't have that double crossing on the main line, and I would keep the mainline double track all the way around. That way you can run two trains continuously while you work in the yard, or run one train on one main while you run a local to some of your industries on the other. I agree about the reverse loop. I'm not sure I understand the barge terminal concept, maybe you could flesh it out for us...
The addition of a reverse loop will make for very interesting operations. The JJJ&E has four reverse loops on the mainline. A reverse loop won't let you fall "asleep" at the throttle. Stay cool and run steam......
Adding a reverse loop is not a problem. The spur at the Town of Mabuila can be extended to reverse back on the mainline. The bit of single track running from north of Blakely to the yard and the bypass adds a little operational interest and signal considerations. But I'll consider your suggestion and think on double tracking it. The Barge terminal will be a future upper deck addition south of Blakely and connect to the yards in via the M/L. At this point it's not a consideration. Thanks for your suggestions so far. This is an N Scale DCC layout so running mutable trains will be no problem. Given the addition of the above reverse loop, how would you operate, A- M/L passenger, B- M/L freight, C - Local freight, D - Switching at the South west Hevy industry branch, E-North side Coal Branch. F - Yard. Thanks Ron
I personaly don't see a need for a reverse loop. Just because other people have them does not mean you need one. If that is a wall across the back stretch I don't see how you will reach the track there. I don't see a way to put an access hatch in the densly packed area above the turn table. Your engine terminal takes up as much space as your yard. In my mind that seems disproportionately large. Over all I feel you have too much trackage. This is something Bob, (Power Steam Guy) pointed out in my original plan. That took me a long time for me to weed out but now I feel it is down to "reasonable". These are "feellings" and do not constitute hard fact as in you should change anything.
Hello Grey One, I had a reverse loop at Mabuila but removed it. I've added it back for the operational flexibility. There are two walls, 13' along the North side and 10' on the East side of the layout. The west side has a four foot opening from the computer/office/work room. All other area are open. The only reach is the NE corner and this will be handled. Grey One You're 100 % right. But I'm a big fan of engine service facilities Again, what can I say. I need the track, I've a ton of major industry kits and other industries. So there will be a lot of track. Right now I'm working on background scenery (an L shaped 11' by 4' mountain range and the backdrop painting) But when I start laying track, I'll be able to cut down if it's needed. I thank all for their suggestion and comments. But what I'm really looking for is how "you" would run trains on this layout. The operational aspects of it. I've got a plan in my mind and a few operational notes. But some brainstorm thoughts from you all regarding how you would operate trains on the layout would be helpful to me. Again Thanks for your thoughts and awaiting more. Ron
I think the track plan is a bit too cluttered. I personally feel there is a lot to be said for simplicity. Fewer tracks can make for longer trains and more complicated switching. Iy will also give you an oppertunity to build scenery, which this current track plan would dwarf.
I thank you all for your comments. However, the point has been missed. And I apologize for not making my request clear. With all due respect, I'm not asking for an opinion of/on or suggestion to change the overall track plan. If there is to much or to little track. What I asked was for Train operational suggestions for this layout. My question for the group was, given this layout plan as is, how would "You" operate it, what and how many trains would you run, and from where to where? I know how I'll run trains on it. I designed it and have gone through several train runs. But I'm looking for the groups operational ideas to see how it compares with mine. Forgive my frustration, But I'll give it one more try and then give up on the question. See ya.
Oh. Me? I’d run a local couple of local freights, a unit train or two and through passenger trains. If running by myself at any one time I’d try to have: 1 local doing the switching 2 Unit trains running around 1 or 2 fast bullet train types running around Maybe a slow passenger type If it proved to be too much then I’d cut back Switchman – is that what you mean? On my layout the main line which is an outer loop representing the GN and CP is designed to handle 4 trains chasing each other while I switch on the inner loop. Officially the inner loop is to be operated as a point to point. The “loop” portion is just for running trains. When done with switching I would bring in a staged mixed consist to drop off and pick up cars from the GandG.
Don't give up just yet Ron. You question might just be a little bit over the top in terms of being able to condense a meaningful answer into the few short words normally used in response to the posts here on the Train board. I was unable to see your drawing clearly. That's not your fault because my eyes are not working as good as they did when I was younger. What I did see was some notes that looked like a steel mill on a hill and a coal mine located on the far side of the layout. Lets begin the discussion there. How do you foresee the movement of the raw materials to the mill, and what will become of the products produced there. Perhaps if I had some indication of what you expect, maybe I could then respond with some helpful comments. If you have the time, perhaps you would be so kind as to take a look at the layout I am building for the Chief. I have a very good understanding of how this railroad will be run; but, I am open to input from people more experienced than myself. Jerry
I see a ton of potential to run lots of mainline action. A reverse loop would be beneficial as well. The peninsula would be a great place to have a local crew, and the yard and engine shops are large. This is just my opinion, but I think the engine shop area is too busy, but I am fan of a single-track mainline thru 13 miles of inhospitable, inaccessible granite west of Denver! Where's the Tunnels!! All joking aside, you'll keep a few people plenty busy--a hostler shuffling engines in the shop complex, a local crew in the industial peninsula, a couple mainline freights, a coal plant operator, with a dedicated shop switcher, a dispatcher, etc.
The steel mill should generate a lot of traffic in and out. So my concern is the length of the spur you have and the need to foul the mainline for all the switching moves you ight need to make in this facility. I wonder if you could start the spur for the steel mill closer to the wall near the four foot opening. I'd also think a second spur off this longer one would be helpful. Place it closer to the steel mill and use it to hold cars while you work the steel mill. The longer spur would let you get off the mainline with your train, the extra track would help you manage the number of loads and empties a steel mill could reasonably be expected to generate.
Wow ! Thanks. Now we're starting to cook with gas. This is what I was looking for. I'm sorry the image is small. It is as large as I know how to make it, without it opening up larger than the screen. these are the kind of thoughts I'm looking for. Here is a link to hopefully, a larger image; http://i98.photobucket.com/albums/l245/switchman05/Operational-Layout-Plan.jpg I'll be working up a schedule of the operations, times, routs, type of trains, etc. based on what I have and what I see on this thread. So thanks for your help. See ya Ron
Ron: Yard Job: set up and break down trains on the Arrival/Departure track, classify cars in the yard, work the livestock and icing tracks. On the prototype, for ease of operation (elimination of awkward run arounds), they might arrange the caboose track, RIP track and car shop all coming off of the arrival track the same way the livestock and icing sidings do. But with those 3 foot and 5 foot walls to the south of the 3 spots in question, I can see why you might have done that to ease your reach. I'd still suggest you flip the direction of the caboose track, even if you don't switch the other track, because (without flipping its direction) you will need to make so many extra run arounds each operating session... and with the relatively short length of time between trains, your harried Yardmaster will thank you for the reconfiguration. If you'll never have one person working the yard while another runs a train around the layout, then changing the configuration to improve efficiency isn't really an issue. Steel Mill Job: There are easily enough tasks in a steel mill to keep a switcher busy. Carloads of materials are constantly being brought in from where they were dropped off by a roadswitcher or transfer run from the Main Yard. Empty cars are being removed from within the mill complex and set out on the siding to be returned by the next roadswitcher or transfer job. Within the complex, 1. hot mold and ingot cars are being moved from the blast furnace to the cooling track; 2. cool molds and ingots cars are moved into the stripper to remove the molds from the cooled (and slightly shrunken) ingots; 3. empty molds are put on another car so they can be moved to the mold shed for preparation for the next pour; 4. the cooled ingots are moved to be reheated so they can be rolled into sheet coils, and the empty cars are taken back to the stripper to receive more empty molds; 5. in the rolling mill, the coils are put into empty gons and then moved to the siding where they will be picked up by the roadswitcher or transfer job; 6. Prepped molds in the mold shed are moved to the blast furnace for the hot pour. Under the overhead cranes of the charging yard, 1. gons loaded with scrap metal are brought in and empties removed; 2. Depending on your era, loaded bottle/torpedo cars or cars with loaded charging boxes are taken into the blast furnace building where the material is to be melted, 3. empty bottle/torpedo cars or cars with empty charging boxes are returned to the charging yard. a. You may want to adjust the power plant track position so it can be served without going through the switchback. b. Is the siding 10 inches north of the power plant used to hold the cars that are dropped off by the road switcher, or is the entire outside arc through Kasali's Village used as the siding for the steel mill? You may want to add 2 more tracks there for a bigger steel mill marshalling yard. c. Typically, every car in and out of a steel mill is weighed, so the Mill Job switcher will have to pause over the scales for every gon or hopper to be weighed. Also the charging boxes or bottle/torpedo cars will need to be weighed before they are moved into the blast furnace. d. Some mills use different recipes for different grades of steel, so the ratio of gons with sheared metal scrap, crushed cast iron, heavy metal or plates, hi carb scrap, turnings, borings, bundles, shredded metal scrap, and pig iron will be different some days than others. Even selectively compressing the charging yard to just 2 tracks would still provide interesting switching, because the mill job operator has to keep juggling loads and empties between the charging yard and the marshalling yard where extra loads are stored and empties are left for pick up. Limestone in containers (14 per gon in the 1970s era I'm modeling) needs to be available to put into some of the charging boxes. I've interpreted the tracks under the Barge Terminal as a double main track with two sidings, one which I've labeled East Staging Barge Terminal Siding and the other West Staging Blakely Siding. Schematically from West to East: West Staging Blakely Siding WB Steel Mill WB Roadswitcher Logging Camp WB Roadswitcher Quarry EB Loop Coal Coal Mine Tulfan Yard EB Lumber Company East Staging Barge Terminal Siding 1. Eastbound Roadswitcher--Tulfan to East Staging Barge Terminal Siding: Goes around the Figure-8 two and an eighth times: left side running and work the lumber yard and the coal mine on the first loop, right side running on the 2nd loop, and left side running on the last loop and pull into East Staging Barge Terminal Siding. Works only trailing point sidings. 2. Westbound Barge Terminal Roadswitcher--East Staging Barge Terminal Siding to Tulfan: Works only trailing point sidings. Takes the inside main (not the arrival departure track) around Tulfan Yard by going south of the ice house and Car Shop, right side running past the coal mine, work the quarry, work the steel mill, work the logging camp, arrive Tulfan. 3. Westbound Blakely Roadswitcher--Tulfan to West Staging Blakely Siding: Right side running past the coal mine, work the quarry, work the steel mill work the logging camp, arrive at West Staging Blakely Siding. 4. East Bound Blakely Roadswitcher--West Staging Blakely Siding to Tulfan: Right side running past the logging camp and coal mine and steel mill, left side running, work the lumber yard, pass the quarry, work the coal mine arrive Tulfan 5. Tulfan Turn East: Tulfan east to Coal Mine to reverse loop to Steel Mill to Tulfan. 6. West Staging to East Staging: Blakely Siding right side running past coal mine, pass Tulfan, go to left side running, work the lumber yard and the coal mine, pass Tulfan on the inside main just south of the car shop and the ice house, arrive East Staging. 7. East Staging to West Staging: Barge Terminal Siding to Tulfan main by ice house, work the steel mill, left side running, work the logging camp, passTulfan on the inside main by the ice house and car shop, pass the coal mine, work the quarry and arrive at West Staging Blakely Siding. To keep the staging sidings open at the proper times, it will be helpful to run freight trains in the following in the following paired order: 2, 1; 4, 3; 7, 6; 5. Or 4, 3; 2, 1; 6,7; 5. The Coal Mine could be worked by a company switcher, but that may be pretty inconvenient if another operator is trying to switch the yard. If a roadswitcher is switching the coal mine, consider this pattern of car movement: 1. loads are pulled from under the tipples; 2. empty cars in the yard are moved to the tipples; 3. empties from the train are moved to the yard. The next roadswitcher repeats the pattern. If you are using live loads, this constantly rotating pattern looks impressive. I've operated on a layout where the host swapped in the live loads at the tipple and pulled them from the hoppers at the the power station between each roadswitcher job. Depending on how onery he was feeling, he might leave loads and empties mixed under the tipple so the operator would have to switch out the empty and put it back after pullling the load. One concern...since it takes longer to do the rotating of cars than simply swapping all loads out and all empties in, depending on how crowded the aisle is or how long it takes to complete the coal mine switching, you may want to have only all loads out and all empties in--no swapping from the yard to the tipple. The same pattern of rotating loads and empties may be used at the quarry, logging camp, and steel mill, too. It wouldn't be necessary to have visible loads, only some way to designate which cars were loads/empties. This method provides a lot more operation for a run, and if someone is working an industry like the steel mill, having multiple roadswitchers bringing and taking cars throughout the evening, keeps the mill operator VERY busy. This track plan looks like it will be fun for 2 operators, and 3 if they're good friends, but more may be too crowded unless you set up some jobs over by the barge terminal area. Is that your intention?
Hello ppuinn, Thank you so much. I appreciate it. This is exactly what I was looking for. It will help me set up operations and schedule my trains. In the future the barge terminal is patterned after the CNJ Bronx Harlem River Terminal. It had only I/O via Barge. I will not be doing that. It will be the upper level south of Blakely and the M/Ls and branches will be 2 1/4 " below the upper terminal. There will be access to the lower level for switchers to handle traffic. A small Plymouth will work the barge terminal. Thanks and have a good weekend. Ron
How I would operate Switchman’s track plan First, analysis of the layout: Double-ended pair of siding through yard- arrival and departure connected to mainlines at either end, full-length train can enter or leave from either direction without backing. (Let us call those connections the “throats” of the yard.) Most switching of yard classification tracks, cuts of more than 2 or 3 cars, will foul the left-end throat, so a bit of the line beyond the left-end throat, the upper left corner of the inmost loop of track, might be considered as used for yard lead. From the right “throat” to the left “throat” is another length of through track that can take trains around some but not all of the yard activity. It might be considered an additional through yard track, and be used as a runaround or thoroughfare track. It would allow locomotives to be cut off the right end of a train terminating on one of the arrival departure tracks, pulled clear via the right throat, then run around to the left throat for access to engine serving facilities. Then there is one more route past the yard that bypasses nearly all of the yard activity, but parallels what I just referred to as the thoroughfare track. This LOOKS LIKE, HAS THE APPEARANCE of double track at the left end, and it would probably be operated as the mainline through route for trains passing but not stopping in the yard. One other route runs around the left end of the layout. It cuts off from the mainline through route right at the middle front of the layout and connects back onto it at the upper left corner. It is just far enough away from the main through route that it does not appear to be double track or passing siding. It should probably be operated/ scenicked as a branch line or alternate route. I am going to refer to this as the STEEL MILL BRANCH in this discussion. The only industries I see off this route are the steel mill and power company on a peninsula that branches away from the rest of the layout. Looking at the rest of the mainline-- the single track running from the right end of the yard area crosses double track and then becomes double track in the upper left corner. I am not sure of how to read the track plan. Does it remain double track around the left lobe of the figure 8 and continue double all the way to the left end of the yard where multiple routes past the yard allow their use as double track. In that case, the only single track part of the mainline is the 7 feet from the middle of the front of the layout to the upper right corner. At the left side of the plan, each line of the double track has a double-ended siding which could be used as a passing siding, but which could also be used as hidden, visible and/or inconspicuous staging. A portion of the double track behind the coal mine at the top of the plan, with crossovers at each end, could also be used as a staging track. Thus there are places for three trains to be set up as coming from “someplace else”. Coal- switched from left end. Train heading out from Coal Co. would be headed counterclockwise on mainline loop. Logging Co- is this a logging CAMP or loading area where cut logs are loaded for transport to a sawmill? Spurs are situated for switching by train headed counterclockwise. Lumber co.- is this a lumber SAWMILL receiving logs and producing lumber to be shipped out? Or is it a retail lumber dealer, ie a “lumberyard”? (In which case it would be receiving finished lumber and other building materials/ hardware etc from somewhere else…) I am going to have to assume it would be useful on this layout for it to be a lumber sawmill which is paired with the logging operation. Now, possible operation of the layout: 1 OR 2 MAINLINE THROUGH MANIFEST FREIGHT TRAINS come from staging tracks with through traffic, reefer blocks and a setout block for the modeled area. Setout block might include ore cars, fuel oil tanks, miscellaneous merchandise in boxcars, and various empty cars. Trains would appear from staging, make a circuit around the mainline and make a quick stop in the yard where reefers would be re-iced as necessary, set-out block pulled off the train, and outgoing traffic block switched onto the train. Then the train would depart, run around the mainline and disappear into staging. Two trains might be set up to run opposite directions, with traffic set up the trains to correspond with direction, ie. fuel oil tanks always come FROM the west and empty tanks are sent in the other train back TO the west. PASSENGER TRAIN IF DESIRED. I did not see anything on the plan that looked like a major passenger terminal. One set of passenger equipment might be used to represent a through train that appears from staging and runs around the mainline without stopping (but everything else has to get out of the way!), disappears back to staging, and comes out of staging later as a local train that makes short stops at one or two stations. This would not necessarily require any special track at stations… I have ridden Amtrak trains that stopped for minor stations on the mainline only a few minutes, then continued. Operation of passenger service WOULD require one staging track somewhere to keep it when it is supposedly continuing its run somewhere out of sight. UNIT COAL TRAIN: Caboose hop (engine and caboose only) from the yard to the coal mine, make runaround to place caboose at far right end of mine tracks, pick up loaded coal hoppers with caboose on right end of train, depart counterclockwise at least once around layout, at upper right, diverge from mainline to Power Plant Branch. This crew would not necessarily switch within the power plant/steel mill area itself, but might leave hoppers on through track, continue off branch to through mainline near front of layout, run closewise on mainline track to upper left corner, go back onto steel mill branch to pick up caboose and then run with caboose only clockwise back to yard. Alternatively, the locomotive might push the loaded hoppers into the spur along Gumpond Swamp to hold for switching into industry tracks. STEEL MILL LOCAL: Operates from yard carrying iron ore and limestone from yard. Runs around layout and onto steel mill branch. There is switches iron ore and limestone to steel mill, also switches loaded coal hoppers left on the steel mill branch to their final spot at the mill, and switches coal hoppers to the power plant. The local PICKS UP empty hoppers from power plant, empty coal hoppers, ore cars and limestone cars from steel mill, and picks up cars of steel products from mill. Transports all back to yard. MAINLINE LOCAL leaves from yard carrying occasional fuel oil tankcars for quarry and logging company and sawmill, occasional LCL (less car load) boxcar for town of Mabula, empty hoppers and/or gons for quarry, empty flats, boxcars and wood chip cars for lumber mill. Local runs around mainline making stops at Mabula, Quarry, Logging Co and Sawmill, picking up limestone and gravel loads at quarry, lumber and woodchip loads at sawmill. Returns to yard. MINE EMPTY LOCAL: Returns empty coal hoppers from yard to coal mine and does other incidental switching at mine, delivering cars of supplies such as mine timbers and machinery, and picking up one or two hoppers of coal for use by the railroad if it has coal-burning steamers, coal loads NOT handled in the unit coal train that runs direct from mine to steel mill and power plant. SEASONAL LIVESTOCK EXTRAS. In slaughter season, stock car trains make through runs from staging, stop in yard to rest, feed and water livestock, then resume run. Same set of cars might run past one time with rest stop, and later in session representing a different train, make a run around line without a stop.
Hello Kenneth L. Anthony, The only single track is the upper right leaving Blakely. It will be a sawmill and a logging camp. Your analysis and assumptions of the RR are dead on correct. The amount of time you took to advise me about how to operate the Layout is much appreciated. I'll be using it to set up my operational schedules. I've printed it off and will review it with a copy of the layout. Your analysis and suggestions will be invaluable to me, along with ppuinn's and I thank you for your kindness. Have a very good week. See ya Ron
One train I failed to mention-- "THE LOGGER". Logs might be handled by the lumber/logging company's own train and crews, rather than by the mainline railroad/common carrier. Lacking its own trackage except for spurs, the logging company might use trackage rights to run its trains over trunkline railroad. Kirby Lumber Company had an arrangement like this with the Santa Fe in East Texas in 1950s-1960s. This is also an excuse to use the limited amount of track you can squeeze onto the layout for an addition purpose and operation. With both the logging camp and sawmill having spurs right off the mainline, I would think that LOG RUNS would be handled by logging company owned "tram", but that delivery of supplies and shipping of finished lumber and woodchips would be handled by trunkline railroad's local peddler freight.
