HO vrs N... more provocative conversation.

Well... It's time to rake some muck around here. Time to get those creative writing juices flowing and stir some controversy to liven-up things on this board (besides I need to practice before the Atlas Forum returns... heh-heh-heh).

Okay.... first... N scalers need to swallow some of their recently developed pride. Over the past 20 years N scale has improved quality and selection and even has increased in number of modelers selecting this as their primary scale.

We all should thank the HOers for all that we have and never bash them for being "humonguously oversized" again. I'm not kidding either. If not for HO... N and Z gauges would not be as far along as they are. HO subsidizes most of the development in other scales. Why do most manufacturerer do their projects in HO and later maybe do them in N scale or another scale? Well... if it doesn't work in HO ... it probably won' fly in another scale either. The cost for tooling in HO will more likely be returned for most projects in a shorter period of time and that can then be used to test the waters of a less popular scale... usually N scale. We should hope that HO products succeed in the hopes that they will "throw us a bone" and make the same product in N scale. We are still waiting for some of those "bones" to materialzie in N scale... maybe because they weren't sucessful in HO and the manufacturers don't want to repeat their mistake in another scale.

Perhaps someday.. N Scale will be a sufficiently large enough market to support its own unfettered model production. But... its more than just the quantity of people in N scale.... it's the quality of those people... AND I DON'T mean how good a modeler either. It has to do with disposable income... that is.. are you a $20 per month spender or a $200+ per month spender. Just by shear number, HO must have more $200+ per month spenders... thus... there is a greater potential for product sucesses. Many N scalers are former HO'ers that are downsizing... retiring to a smaller abode... with a smaller fixed income. They may not be able to spend $200+ per month... it might be difficult for some to justify $20 per month. New N scalers need to be the younger urban professional types that can shell-out the bucks for the new products on a regular basis... that can generate sufficient sales to move products off the shelves.

I am increasingly seeing products that are very good quality and extremely well detailed sitting on store & e-sites shelves because there are not enough buyers willing to spend the money for the products. Sure... some products "fly-off" the shelves... those well hyped and that have certain "preferred roadnames". But , other items are just sitting there waiting for the close-out sales. I'm sure that this happens in HO as well, but, then in HO there are so many products that are repetitive that it is likely to happen.

HO can have several market price points... low income... middle income and high income quality. I'm not so sure N scale or other scales have that advantage... at least not yet. There simply aren't enough people to dissect the market that much. We'll have to deal with probably "toy-grade" and a hgher "modelers grade" for a while longer until there are enough N scalers to further divide the market. Some will claim that LifeLike, Spectrum & Model Power will be that "mid grade" alternative.. but... I don't know about that. LifeLikes prices are up there with Atlas/Kato/IMRC and are still too flawed (no DCC, Rapidos etc) for many to take them seriously. Interestingly... LifeLike in HO is considered a fairly high end product.of the mid-grade of HO.

BTW... those that are wondering where I place BRASS... it's a "luxury grade" that I don't include in the mainstream model railroading hobby.

Okay... I'm tired of typing... your turn to keep this a civilized thread and offer your comments.

[ 03. August 2004, 14:54: Message edited by: Calzephyr ]

 

Interesting points. I have several thoughts on this, but just a real quick addition to your overall theme....I think that Z-Scale has a great effect on N-scale as well. The more popular Z becomes, the higher volume of products will flow down the pipe, and most of these benefit N by providing new manufacturing techniques and better/smaller/slower motors for locomotives, for example; maybe better and smaller couplers will eventually be a result as well; Smaller DCC decoders for Z will mean less space taking away weight in N-scale. This list could go on and on I'm sure.

And maybe, just maybe, the "if it sells in HO we'll do it in N" mantra will eventually become "if it sells in N, we'll do it in Z", which certainly couldn't hurt either.

 

Calzephyr, I will disagree with you about HO scale always getting new products first. After all, I don't believe Atlas is planning to offer its Shay in HO, nor is Con-Cor going to offer a USRA Santa Fe type in HO.

There's more available in HO than N because there are still more people modeling in HO, but as to sales, I don't believe there are very many "mass purchasers" in HO. I'll bet the number of people in HO that buy a dozen of the same locomotive could be counted on one hand, but it seems quite common in N scale.

There are folks that participate in these forums that own more motive power than the real Kanasa City Southern! I don't think there are very many HO'ers with 500 or more locomotives. Truthfully this dumbfounds me. I've been in N scale for 37 years and have acquired a grand total of 31 powered units, including gas-electrics (2) and trolleys (2)!

 

Doug,

Your points are very good too. The manufacturers are definately looking at N and Z as the future of model railroading. They invest in the tooling for these smaller, less populated scales because there is a future market there. Everything seems to be miniaturizing as time moves on. Eventually N scale will be what HO is today ... HO will be what O & S are today... and Z will be what N scale is today.

[ 03. August 2004, 15:46: Message edited by: Calzephyr ]

 

TR,

There are some available spots in N scale for products that already exist in HO made by another manufacturer. Atlas took a great leap of faith to make the Shay... lack of support for this product would likely kill any further ventures outside of the normal MO.

 

Grandpa Joe -

If stuff is sitting on shelves in N, it could be a simpler explanation - the economy in general, for example, has reduced my buying, and I am (or at least was!) one of those upper income types you want in the hobby!

Another factor is that I have been in N now for 15 years, and am close to having enough! Is it possible that there are many others out there like me, who, after Kato released the first great N locos, moved to N, in sort of an "N Scale Baby Boom" and are now in my position?

I agree we need the next generation of folks to switch to N - whether because of sound in locos, increased use of DCC, reliabiltiy, reduces housing space, as you mention, or whatever is holding them back.

Also, if HO is 66% of the market and N is 16-20%, as most studies say, at least N has a fighting chance of a variety of products. All other scales combined must equal the N scale numbers, and those don't seem to have a huge problem in new products. Atlas is coming out with skads of O scale stuff.

In short, the model rr market seems healthy enough to me, recession notwithstanding.

 

I started in N at 10 yrs old,with a X-mas set of Bmann metroliners.I made them into cab cars since.Yes,I was out of it for 30 yrs,but I've made up for lost time.I was never in HO.I liked N & stayed with it.

 

I left HO for N scale in January of 1998. Why? Because I'm a greedy pig and I discovered I could fit 3.3 times more N scale than HO in a given area.

As for the economy, it is doing very well, considering oil is hovering around $44 a barrel. It's a FACT that the US economy is NOT in a recession. On the contrary, overall it is GROWING (despite Democrat gloom and doom) - just read some LEGITIMATE online financial/stock market sites if you don't believe me.

 

Joe, now I'm feeling a little slighted. Or at least Mr. Cohen is. If we're going with the "trickle down" theory of development we should really be thanking the O scalers. Granted O doesn't translate any more into peripheral marketing, but we all know who the river sprung from. This is why I will never understand the interscale biases. It's like hating your parents (or children). As a matter of fact it was O that got me into trains and led me to N. To me, a train is a train. (then again I even like the Hogwart's Express )

 

Kis, not to be a gloomy Dem, but there are a couple ways to measure how well the economy is doing. I believe ours is doing OK as far as the machine goes, but by and large the average Joe doesn't have as much to spend on it. Our jobs left and were replaced by lesser jobs. A fair number of us have to have two income families to stay in the same place our parents were. "The economy" is an abstract which is completely meaningless to most of working class America. "The economy" only means something to us when it's shared. Just because a few folks stock portfolios are starting to not suck anymore doesn't mean that there is a good economy for the rest of us.

 

Jake,

NO slighting of the O scalers was intended. I simply didn't go into the past to explain that O scale was the ruler-of-the-roost until about 1950 when HO became a viable modeling scale. O scales loss of market share was fairly sudden though... whereas HO has had 5 decades of staying power. One could argue that the baby-boomers grew-up with both HO & O and chose HO because it was less expensive and required less room. By the same token, O scale popularity remains constant as a third most modeled scale. It is interesting to note that many manufacturers are producing O scale products despite the 3rd overall ranking... but that is because O scale has been around about 100 years and is still being support by an apparently affluent clientel that can afford to pay $50.00 for one piece of rolling stock and several hunderds of dollars for a single locomotive. O scale also has a large following by those interested in the collectable attributes of the old pre-war Lionel products. This continues to attract new well-heeled modeler/speculators to their fold.

 

Joe, yeah. The continued variety in O has had me baffled for some time. If most modelers are like me they have a couple (well 12) O scale locos, but many, many more N (if you also do N). So there's more N scale modelers who buy more locos and rolling stock. Where's that Atlantic?

BTW, I'm just being a goof. I agree with your points. We have a lot to be thankful of with the "other" scale(s), so there's no reason for the bizarre animosity that seems to exist.

 

Jeff,

I hope your future returns you to your past income levels and beyond. I certainly agree that the economy has had a negative effect on many people that supported all scales of model railroading. Some have been greatly affected and may never regain the buying power they once had. It all depends on what segment of the economy one was in when the "great undeclared depression" occured. While the economy appears to be recoveing... not everyone will really recover what they've already lost. Lets all hope for a long term recovery that will fuel further investment in this hobby.

 

Grandpa,

Yeah, I think that there is no "national" economy any more. Just "industry sectors" and regional economies. Boston may do well while Texas shrinks, etc. and in a few years, it may turn around regionally.

I was in a hot sector - golf - which is now very, very cool. However, I'm unemployable, so I am trying to tough it out. Golf has been going strong since the 1500's, and I think it will survive this recession, too.

Of course, my stats are old - I know that technically the economy is recovering. In fact, they mentioned yesterday that growth dropped to 3%. When I got out of college in 1977, we would have killed for 3% growth.

Nonetheless, my business is just now seeing an uptick, and my wife is just now getting enough interviews for reasonable jobs to make her think there is a light at the end of the tunnel for her......

The real difference between a recession and depression? A recession is when your neighbor doesn't have a job, a depression is when you don't have a job......

 

This whole "market share" value has always been one of the hot button topics of the so called battle of the scales. I sincerely believe that N scale garners more of a market share than most of the experts claim. Most of these experts are using magazine sales and mail-in ballots to count the number of modelers. Not a very scientific approach.

In my opinion, if you were to count the number of modelers individually, you would probably come up with a number closer to the 30% range for N scale. However, it was pointed out that quite a few N scalers buy more equipment for their model railroad. I know that I have more locos and freight cars than most H O modelers. Therefore I think that the number of units sold should also factor into the popularity pie.

 

Kis, not to be a gloomy Dem, but there are a couple ways to measure how well the economy is doing. I believe ours is doing OK as far as the machine goes, but by and large the average Joe doesn't have as much to spend on it. Our jobs left and were replaced by lesser jobs. A fair number of us have to have two income families to stay in the same place our parents were. "The economy" is an abstract which is completely meaningless to most of working class America. "The economy" only means something to us when it's shared. Just because a few folks stock portfolios are starting to not suck anymore doesn't mean that there is a good economy for the rest of us. [/QB][/QUOTE]

I have to respectfully disagree with you.

US factory growth is increasing ( http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=1519&ncid=749&e=6&u=/afp/20040802/bs_afp/us_economy )

Also, car sales went up in July and home sales continue to rise as interest rates remain low.

As for the "average" American worker, if he would try to learn something beyond how to work the remote control, he wouldn't be such a slave to economic factors.

One more thing - if a couple both have to work today, (compared to their parents). it is because they want MORE and have MORE to choose from. My parents never had cell phones, computers, the internet, SUVs, 35-mpg cars, iPods, DCC (for modelers), widespread air travel, fast food restaurants, miracles drugs, central air and heat, etc. etc. etc. etc. If people want SO MUCH MORE than their parents had, of course it takes two people working to pay for it nowadays.


The above is my opinion only and should not be taken as a personal insult directed toward anyone!

 

Too funny!

As for me, I have waffled about HO for some time but decided to go with both scales. N because I can run may unit trains around the room and HO because of the detail! I've waffled back-n-forth about an N-scale layout on a small table or around the room too. I guess I like waffles! I've always wondered why the scale flame wars. Everyone knows N and HO rule and O sucks! just kidding. Wish I had room for some O. Hmmm, maybe around the ceiling!!!!

 

HO vs N - I don't care!

Amazing how much mileage this topic gets every time it reappears.

I think HO is great, if money and space were no object - I'd be in HO.

As for market share and all that jazz, I'm sure 50 "experts" will debate that ad infinitum.

My first electric trains were Lionel, then HO. Finally, I pushed my self into N and I've never looked back.

 

Heh, heh, heh,..... ha... ha .... ROTFLMAO!

Wait til you see my next topic!

Moderators beware.... could be a hot one.